There is no evidence that anyone changed her panties after the visit to the Whites. Patsy didn't open the package for her and I doubt John or Burke had. Soooo, it would appear JonBenét had gotten the panties out herself, changed into them as she got dressed Christmas day. I wonder if the white top she wore was new - - was she dressed in all new clothes from the inside out? (That is one question the Ramseys were never asked.)

I believe she had even gotten the right day - Christmas fell on Wednesday that year - and not by accident. She was learning her letters and sounds, after three months in school where they go over the day of the week every day - I bet she was proud of herself when she could figure out which were the Wednesday panties.

No reason at all to think they were loaned out, returned and worn by JonBenét after - - none at all.

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There was an interesting reality TV show this week about a family with a 4 year old in diapers. It was determined she wore the diapers because her mother was so controlling that was the only vestige of self she had. It was a stage mom, primping her for commercials.

If Patsy did produce a package the chances are real it was from an after death purchase at Bloomingdales, just as they purchased a doll after death to manipulate the evidence. The panties were common and sold ike candy.

Smit is finally headed in the right direction, he hasn't made a peep about their innocence in ions. Keenan can't be far behind.

Don't the Ramsey's want the killer caught? Sure doesn't look like it, does it?

I remember calling the BPD and telling them they needed to look at something - - and they blew me off - - so I went elsewhere with the information. Once I went to another police authority, once I went to the media, once I simply posted the document online and let everyone see the truth.

No one held onto anything just to show the BPD was inept. It was the BPD who closed doors and forced others to sit on stuff until they gave the investigation over to the DA.

After that, some evidence was turned in that should have been checked on LONG before.

And, sadly, some other stuff has still not been turned in. Maybe the people holding it have lost faith in the system and figure why bother? Maybe they have gotten themselves in situations where coming forward now would cause problems (questions they can't answer). It is those people who some of us are attempting to reach.

The tip line is open. There are instructions on the forum for getting in information anonymously. Packages of evidence can be sent to the DA - or to Ollie Gray - or to me...

Silence is not the answer.

How come Lou Smit doesn't have that package checked? Or, at least retrieve it from whomever holds it now? This is too stupid for words, and I don't believe the cops wouldn't want something that would prove their theory, or not. If it came from the hellhole, no way would they turn it away.

Don't you find it odd that THAT piece of evidence was left behind, and for only Ramsey detectives to have 'found it'? We know ST was in JB's bathroom, and we see by the list of evidence that underwear drawer was gone thru and underwear taken, so where was the package that only the Ramsey's detectives could get their paws on? Under the house?

I do not know where it is now; don't know if it has been examined. We can only hope.

I remember reading the "Fleet did it" website of Keith Andrews, when it was still on the internet, where he suggested Fleet White had substituted JonBenet's panties after he had murdered JonBenet with panties that belonged to Daphne White. That, in Keith Andrews' opinion, was the reason for the large size panties found on JonBenet at the autopsy.

The trouble with this theory, in my opinion, is that it's another "it might have happened that way" hypothetical scenario which can't be proved.

My own theory is that John and Patsy simply didn't know which panties JonBenet was wearing on Christmas day 1996. Patsy was very busy that day and John would not have been interested. In Patsy's police interviews she seemed to be guessing as to which panties JonBenet wore that Christmas day. This was because, I think, Patsy didn't really know.

In my opinion, Fleet and Priscilla White stole one of JonBenet's panties which came from this large size pack intended by Patsy as a Christmas present to Atlanta.

This may have been on the 23rd December Ramsey Christmas party. Fleet had planned what he was going to do. Fleet had taken a Ramsey notepad to write the ransom note and some new JonBenet panties to substitute on JonBenet after she was murdered.

JonBenet's original panties with all the forensic evidence were taken by Fleet, as Fleet did his fleeing criminal escape back home.

I have read that Lin Wood has forwarded a packet of JonBenet's panties to the Boulder DA's office. Lin Wood must consider that packet of panties important evidence. I don't really know why those panties are important. Perhaps it might be explained in court one day?

There is an interesting conversation about JonBenet's panties in the Steve Thomas deposition :

Lin Wood : "Was there any decision made or conclusion drawn, that you're aware of, from any source, as to whether the panties that JonBenet Ramsey was found in had been worn and washed in the past or were new, in effect, fresh out of the packet?

Steve Thomas : I believe that was after my departure that the underwear investigation took place.

Lin Wood : So again, the state of the evidence with respect to that issue, you do not know, true?

Steve Thomas : Right. It's my belief from detective briefings that they were referred to as oversized floral panties.

Lin Wood : Thank you, were there any autopsy photos is my question?

Steve Thomas : Without the long-john over pants covering the underwear, I don't recall seeing any autopsy photos of just the child in her underpants."

1 A. I am sure that I put the package
2 of underwear in her bathroom, and she opened
3 them and put them on.

7 A. I can't say for sure. I mean, I
8 think I bought them with the intention of
9 sending them in a package of Christmas things
10 to Atlanta. Obviously I didn't get that
11 together, so I just put them in her, her
12 panty drawer. So they were free game.

11 Q. And I will just state a fact
12 here. I mean, there were 15 pair of panties
13 taken out of, by the police, out of
14 JonBenet's panty drawer in her bathroom. Is
15 that where she kept -
16 A. Uh-huh (affirmative).
17 Q. -- where you were describing that
18 they were just put in that drawer?
19 A. Yes.
20 Q. Okay. And every one of those was
21 either a size four or a size six. Okay?
22 Would that have been about the size pair of
23 panties that she wore when she was six years
24 old?
25 A. I would say more like six to
1 eight. There were probably some in there
2 that were too small.
3 Q. Okay. But not size 12 to 14?
4 A. Not typically, no.

I stand by this, I do not believe the Ramseys have a clue. It seems somewhat possible the perp packed that suitcase with items he needed , a nightgown, fresh panties, a book , a blanket...items he took for her to take a pretend visit ..maybe to the north pole?

It seems we are all different as to how we make mental references to details.

>Perhaps Singular had a clue? His book was off track with the
>people involved, but his thoughts may have some merit. The
>fibers from cord, rope bag and paintbrush found on her bed
>(if this is true) indicate something I could never quite
>come to terms with. Was she carried to her bed before being
>reposited in that basement room?

What is it that you are having difficulty coming to terms with regard to the fibers. I have not heard that there was any paintbrush flecks on her bed. Can you cite a source, sissi?

>Was there any indication
>anywhere in that house showing an area where the crime was
>commited ,an area matching urine stains,etc?

Yes, there was. I don't know where (besides here) that I read it, but there was a puddle of urine in the area where the tote was, just outside the room where she was found. I know that saying there was and citing a reliable source are two different things, but I can say that somewhere along the line I read a reasonably reliable source refer to evidence that provided support for a conclusion that JBR was murdered in that location and released her bladder there.

Do we believe
>so much as evidence that perhaps isn't true, such as that
>paintbrush belonging to Patsy. How do we know this? Is it
>because the remainder was deposited in the paint tote?

I think the word "Korea" in gold on the part that formed part of the garrote and maybe a matching up of the two pieces at the break points might have led to that conclusion.

Do we
>have the shavings to prove it was whittled in the Ramsey
>basement? I'm not so certain we have the facts, as I am not
>so certain she was murdered in that house.

Whittled? There were fragments that were in the tote that would match the conclusion that flecks of the brush handle dropped into the tote when it was broken into three pieces. Has that morphed into "whittled"?

>
>I stand by this, I do not believe the Ramseys have a clue.
>It seems somewhat possible the perp packed that suitcase
>with items he needed , a nightgown, fresh panties, a book ,
>a blanket...items he took for her to take a pretend visit
>..maybe to the north pole?

Wouldn't he pack street clothes? Even kids who pack their own suitcase tend to put in the clothes they'd wear (and often forget all about bed clothes and a change of underwear). Who knows, though.

I agree - his research was interesting and could ultimately prove valuable. I wish he didn't drop out of sight after his book hit the stands. I think his files could be interesting.

The
>fibers from cord, rope bag and paintbrush found on her bed
>(if this is true)

Huh? Fibers from cord is true and understandable. The bag the rope was has never been identified as a source of fibers on the bed. I don't believe authorities have that bag. Nothing from the paintbrush was on the bed.

> Was there any indication
>anywhere in that house showing an area where the crime was
>commited ,an area matching urine stains,etc?

Yes - it appears she was killed in the basement, next to the paint tote - just outside the windowless room where her body was found.

>Do we believe
>so much as evidence that perhaps isn't true, such as that
>paintbrush belonging to Patsy. How do we know this? Is it
>because the remainder was deposited in the paint tote?

Patsy believed it was hers.

>Do we
>have the shavings to prove it was whittled in the Ramsey
>basement?

No one whittled the paintbrush - it was simply broken.

Personally, I thought Singular was a little bit out to lunch. I saw his interview with Geraldo when his book came out and he said JonBenet was brought back to the parents, dead! Like someone rang the doorbell with their dead daughter in their arms and handed her back to them. That would mean they knew she was dead, and staged a scene for whoever killed her. I don't think so.

Has it ever been decided what she died from, the strangulation or head wound? I think that makes a difference in motive because a head wound could have been an accident because she was only struck once, unlike a crime of passion where the killer keeps hitting. If it was an accident, then maybe the killer wasn't a killer at all, but someone who loved JonBenet and knew the head wound would ruin her for life? Maybe the strangulation was out of love so she wouldn't be slow or paralized throughout her life. She was so vibrant and the head blow was so severe, no way would she come out of that as she was.

That's just my opinion.

Stephen Singular thought JonBenet was taken from the house and murdered elsewhere. Singular was also interested in the photographer of JonBenet, Randy Simons, who seems to have been recommended to Patsy Ramsey by Pam Griffin.

Randy Simons was very concerned to tell the police that he didn't kill JonBenet when he was arrested in the road in Boulder in the nude. He is later supposed to have said that he was worried he might be shot (like Helgoth?).

Pam Griffin made a statement that Randy Simons asked if he could photograph her daughter in the nude. Perhaps Randy Simons had a few guilty secrets like some VERY unpleasant photos of JonBenet being murdered which have not yet been discovered?

I disagreed with Singular when he then jumped to the conclusion that the Ramseys were involved. There is no evidence of this.

The only evidence against the Ramseys that makes any sense is red fibers on the duct tape. It's a big IF that these fibers were Patsy's. They can be explained by secondary transfer and contamination of the crime scene. I believe there were other fibers on the duct tape that are not Ramsey fibers.

I think I read somewhere that the Boulder police didn't request Patsy's red sweater until about a year after the murder. I would like to see those fibers retested with modern forensic detection equipment and be able to see the lab reports.

I am interested that Santa McReynolds was a Professor of journalism. Chris Wolf and Judith Phillips may have been his students. Randy Simons may have known Judith Phillips as a business acquaintance.

Fleet White is almost certainly a friend of Spade as well as former Denver detective Tom Haney. Fleet White is a friend of the uncle of Nancy Krebs the Deputy sheriff of Bakersfield, California, Clifford Christoff. Nancy's mother Gwen Boykin is related by marriage to Spade and Gwen Boykin visited Fleet and Priscilla's house in 1996.

I feel all these friendships and relationships need to be investigated with regard to JonBenet's murder.

It could be that Mary Keenan (Boulder DA) thinks Santa Bill McReynolds was the murderer and as he is now dead the JonBenet case needs no further investigation. I think that would be a pity.

Charlie Brennan Rocky Mountain News March 2nd 1997 :

"Hair, handwriting and blood samples were taken from Bill McReynolds and his wife on Feb 7th after he and his wife returned from a month long trip to Spain."

Charlie Brennan April 23rd 2003 :

"Keenan's prime suspect was Bill McReynolds "She was really hot on him as a suspect said one source, I would say she was real excited about it." Said another source close to the investigation "She was hard-charging on Bill McReynolds I'm basing this on my own conversations with her. She was convinced that McReynolds did it."

I have the tapes of the interviews and that includes Mary Keenan going in to talk to the Ramseys about Santa. She was interested byt never indicated she thought he was THE ONE. Just didn't happen.

I also noticed what appears like 3 pair of underwear in a package in one of the warrants. Did anyone else notice that?

Also,,,what's with the three "notes" in the search warrants. We have the note from Bill McReynolds (IMO) found in JonBenet's bedroom wastebasket,,,what are the other two notes. The Letter to Santa was listed separately.

Thanks sissi,,,that then could account for the second note taken,,,so what's the third note?

It got Singular on the talk circuit, didn't it. Anything I have read with regard to Singular including the Ramseys as having guilty knowledge seemed half-hearted IMO.

The Santa Bear was part of the loot she got from a pageant. The woman who ordered the stuff ordered a lot of different items, passed them out to all the participants - - the kids did not all get the same gifts.

Pam Paugh said that when she visited the Ramsey house a few days after the murder to collect some Ramsey personal possessions, the Santa teddy bear was still there on JonBenet's alternate bed.

The Santa bear was photographed in the crime scene photos and I think was then lost or stolen somehow.

The police appealed for information about it. I have no idea if it later turned up somewhere.

It's another good mystery, like the hammer and flashlight that Linda Arndt noticed at the crime scene and may have allowed to be lost.