Never collected as evidence, huh?

http://www.thedailycamera.com/extra/ramsey/1998/01/12-1.html
Jan 12, 1998
The flashlight has been sent to the Colorado Bureau of Investigations for lab testing, according to the brief article, which appears in the magazine's "Scoop" section.
"Police believe the flashlight's heavy rubber coating seems consistent with an instrument that could deliver a crushing blow yet not cause bleeding," the magazine reports, without identifying a source.
A flashlight was listed among several blunt objects collected at the Ramsey's Boulder home, according to four search warrants released Sept. 29.

http://www.thedailycamera.com/extra/ramsey/1998/01/12-1.html
Feb 15, 1998
A published report last month alleged that a heavy flashlight found during the initial search of the Ramsey home had been missing and was recently found. Boulder investigators said the flashlight was never lost and had been analyzed by the Colorado Bureau of Investigation months ago.

http://extras.denverpost.com/news/jon166.htm

Meanwhile, Aaholm also discounted published reports that a flashlight police suspect might have been used to inflict JonBenet's head injury had been lost but later was found in a storage area at police headquarters with other evidence.

"The supposition that it was lost and recently found is incorrect," Aaholm said. "It was analyzed by the Colorado Bureau of Investigation early on and returned to police as part of the investigation." The police spokeswoman said she didn't know whose flashlight it was or what was found in the CBI examination.

On the kitchen "table", huh?

2 LOU SMIT: And I'm just going to show you
3 another photograph here. I want to talk to you
4 again a little bit, if I can, about the
5 flashlight. Okay?
6 JOHN RAMSEY: Um hmm.
7 LOU SMIT: You said you kept in a drawer
8 where? Can you point out to that?
9 JOHN RAMSEY: Well, normally it was just
10 in a drawer in this little bar area in the
11 hallway.
12 LOU SMIT: On another interview, were you
13 shown a picture of a flashlight?
14 JOHN RAMSEY: I was shown a picture of a
15 scarf and a picture in which there was a
16 flashlight in the background, and not just of a
17 flashlight.
18 LOU SMIT: Okay. I'm going to show you a
19 photograph that I've got out of labeled Book Four.
20 And I'll show it to the camera. And I'd like it,
21 if you can, to tell me what you see there?
22 JOHN RAMSEY: Well it looks like a MAG
23 like kind of flashlight there. But that looks like
24 maybe a plane or (INAUDIBLE) or something.
25 LOU SMIT: Does that look like flashlight
0242
1 that you have or does --
2 JOHN RAMSEY: I mean, it could be. It
3 looks a little bigger than the one I had. But it
4 could have been the same one.
5 LOU SMIT: Were you ever shown the
6 flashlight?
7 JOHN RAMSEY: No.
8 LOU SMIT: Where does that flashlight
9 appear to be here?
10 JOHN RAMSEY: Well, it's on the kitchen
11 counter.
12 LOU SMIT: Can you point on the diagram
13 where that is?
14 JOHN RAMSEY: It's right here. (INAUDIBLE)
15 is right there.
16 LOU SMIT: Do you have any idea how it got
17 there?
18 JOHN RAMSEY: No.
19 LOU SMIT: Did you put it there?
20 JOHN RAMSEY: No. Not that I recall.
21 LOU SMIT: Did you use a flashlight at all
22 that morning to look for JonBenet?
23 JOHN RAMSEY: I don't think so. There was
24 no reason to turn the lights on. I wouldn't even
25 bet that our flashlight worked. If I were to bet,
0243
1 I'll bet it wouldn't work. We just didn't keep up
2 with that.
3 LOU SMIT: When you had that flashlight,
4 did you ever put batteries in it? Do you remember?
5 JOHN RAMSEY: I might have once. Certainly
6 probably initially. We have a flashlight in the
7 car also, but it's a smaller thing.
8 LOU SMIT: Was that a MAG light?
9 JOHN RAMSEY: Yeah. It was a smaller one.
10 You've got to show this to John Andrew. He might
11 remember because he bought it for me.
12 LOU SMIT: Do you know when he got it for
13 you?
14 JOHN RAMSEY: No. It was like a father's
15 day or birthday or Christmas present. It may have
16 been a year or two before. And it looks kind of
17 big. But it could have been the same one.

ATTACHMENT B

The following in an inventory of property taken pursuant to the search warrant:
gray sweatshirt (35BAH)
blouse (7JRB)
underwear (8JRB)
envelope w/carpet samples (9MTE)
toilet tissue (10PP)
toilet seat lid (13PP)
girls underwear (36BAH)
(1) men’s underwear (53BAH)
(1) men’s pants (54BAH)
(1) girls underwear (56BAH)
(1) girls underwear (61BAH)
(1) girls underwear (62BAH)
(1) gift box w/black velvet (17JRB)
(1) flashlight (20JRB)
bed sheet (16MTE)
five pair girls underwear (76BAH)
two pair girls underwear (77BAH)
golf club (79BAH)
black & gold blanket (19PP)
one blue suitcase (21PP)
This inventory was made by James R. Byfield #416.
(Signature of Officer)
in the presence of Sgt. Wickman
(Signature of Another officer or Credible Person) and is a true and detailed account of all property taken pursuant to the search warrant.

You have "experts" who read the news and can't be bothered to KEEP UP WITH it.

edited to add - it took me less than 15 minutes to "keep up with it".

Such easy targets when they go public as guns for hire with information that is FALSE and INCOMPLETE.

I see a black and gold blanket
and
a gift box w/black velvet,

but no "black and gold gift box".

Regarding the ONE PAIR of men's underwear and men's pants, I believe they took John's clothing that was laying in the bathroom from the night before. Guess John hung up his shirt (as he said he does).

He's absolutely right about one thing, someone in that house murdered her: An INTRUDER!!! So, he right it was someone in the house. LOL!

What have I missed? I didn't think anyone conclusively proved what the murder weapon was.

I don't have Spitz's pathology book, but I have The Color Atlas of Forensic Pathology.

I've always thought the object used to hit JonBenét was round anyway because of the curvature of the skull fracture. Dave did some experiments with a Maglite and coconuts that showed the fracture is consistent with the use of a Maglite. Not only that, the light seemed to be out of place on the kitchen counter.

It's a heavy object that was found and it seems no one is sure how it ended up on the kitchen counter. So funny how a possible murder weapon was misplaced by the cops. lol!

Why weren't the Ramsey's fingerprints on the flashlight if it belonged to them? And why would they think to wipe it off down to the batteries, yet leave it on their counter, but think to get rid of the rope, tape and possible stun gun? Hmmmmm???

Can he answer why he thinks they would have tortured her by strangling her when there is no pathology in either parent previously AND then HIT her HARD? That is not what a parent would do. He's not too smart, imo. because it dosen't make sense...he's definitely NO expert on MURDER. He's ridiculous!!

This is a very simple case to figure "Intruder vs. Parents" if one applies just a little sense.

It's something you're born with, I guess. Either you have it or you don't.

Edit to add: You know what is NOT funny, though? Accusing people of killing thier own child without an ounce of evidence. NOTHING to back it up. That isn't funny at all. I bet if it happened to you, you wouldn't think there anything "funny" about it.

I haven't spewed anything. There is circumstanial evidence that points directly in the so-called friends direction. He was obviously NOT his best friend. SOMEBODY killed her and it wasn't the parents.

I have no idea what old man you're talking about and I never said the houskeeper did it because she's poor? What? Don't make things up to make yourself appear to know what I think. And whose child is getting the brunt of accusations? The only child i know of is BR and the parents certainly have no control over who accuses him. Are you SERIOUS?? The Ramsey's have sued on his behalf, Thank GOd.

What are you babbling about?

Edit to change: WaSn't comprehending what you were saying the first time around. DUH.

And he has not proven anything. He has stated that he thinks the
FL fits the skull void perfectly. He never had JonBenet's
skull to work with, only photographs, the same ones that Smit had
that give so many other experts around here and other forums fits
because they are only PHOTOGRAPHS. This is his theory and not fact.

However, he may be right about a FL being used. They are heavy and Dave has done some tests with one and he believes the small end could have made the depression in the skull. I'm more inclioned to believe Dave rather than WS because I know Dave to be more interested in finding the unvarnished truth and less vulnerable to political pressure. And we have the description of how he conducted the test.

Also however, I have never seen a mag light covered in rubber, such as the coroner describes. If they exist I'm sure they would be more common to campers, frog men and police than everyday home owners.

But IF this is the weapon I feel certain the killer left it for show and tell and took the real weapon with him.

And Candy and Shalimar, tell me why a parent would be using a flash light in their own house when their electricity was working fine. Do you wander around in your house with the lights off? And how does this fit into your theory of what happened? "a parent killed her accidently with a flash light and thinking she was dead strangled her to death.

also, if the "perp" was roaming around the house and being sneaky, a flashlight would serve him better than overheads because a nosey neighbor could say they saw lights on. i think the perp was in the habit of paying jbr a visit more than once;)

Shalimar, the main suspects (Ramseys) best friends were on the list of Main Suspects!

good point, but why is it ok to speculate about those suspects and not the ramseys?

i'd be happy to talk about FW as perp, but i'd also like to consider Fernie, Stine's, and even rev h. i think FW's company that holiday would be an excellent discussion, but it seems there's very little known about them or what part they played in the investigation. i always wondered why the r's weren't more suspicious of them since they said they really didn't know them. if the men from out of town were watching a movie with the rn lines in it, why haven't the r's brought them up for review? why hasn't lou smit?

why some suspects are sacred territory and others are free game, is beyond me. why do any of us care who did it? if anyone involved lied about anything, anything at all, they need to be a suspect. if they're all such nice people, they shouldn't have anything to hide.

They had no idea why the flashlight was there. If it was a murder weapon it would have been gone with the other stuff used in the murder. Either it was a cop who set it down and forgot about it, OR the killer in his state of mind as he fled the scene left it behind because it belonged to the Ramsey's.

The Ramsey's should ask themselves who, of their inncer cirlce might know where to locate a flashlight in thier home. Of course, that proves nothing because an intruder who was lurking in the hosue could have easily found it as well. I used to think it was left behind on accident, but since it was the Ramsey's flashlight, he left it there on purpose, not wanting to have anything on him that belonged to the family.

That makes sense to me. He took his tape, his cord and his stungun out with him.

As far as I know neither Dr Spitz or Dr Wecht have ever qualified as detectives, or performed as detectives. As Shakespeare said once it’s a bit like “folly doctor-like controlling skill.” All the doctors I’ve ever met have told me that electronic bugging doesn’t happen. I don’t think many doctors know much about the real world of industry.

As I think Margoo has said the flashlight was on the kitchen counter, not the kitchen table as Spitz has been quoted as saying. Spitz should get his facts right if he wants to be described as an expert consultant to the Boulder police. I’m not at all sure how expert Spitz is in the field of stun gun injuries. Dr Dobersen has said JonBenet was stun gunned “with a reasonable degree of medical certainty.” I believe Dr Dobersen knows what he’s doing.

There was one of these so-called expert doctor professional witnesses in the UK called Professor Meadow who put many parents into prison with his testimony about sudden infant death syndrome. His testimony has now largely been discredited. He has now lost his medical qualifications from the British medical ruling body. They started to have a sudden loss of confidence in him when he made extraordinary statistical claims about infant deaths which the Royal Statistical Society said was nonsense.

I think Dr MacDonald suffered from these so-called expert witnesses. There was a psychiatrist called Dr Brussel who described Dr MacDonald as a psychopath. This was in disagreement with at least six other psychiatrists and psychologists, four of whom were employed by the government. Because the judge was not a competent judge, Dr Brussels’s testimony was the only psychiatric testimony the jury was ever allowed to see. There was then FBI media pressure, with a biased anti-MacDonald book and TV film by Joe McGinniss to coincide with Dr MacDonald’s 1985 appeal. That was rather like the FBI media pressure in the Richard Jewell Atlanta bombing case.

I can’t quite see why the American public and media can’t believe what the Ramseys and Dr MacDonald said happened did happen. There is nothing in what they’ve said that makes me think they have been lying about anything. Both John and Patsy Ramsey said they didn’t kill JonBenet. I believe them. Presumably Burke said the same thing but that has never been made public. Why can’t the public be sympathetic to people when there’s a tragic death in the family, and send them flowers, instead of being so keen on prosecuting innocent people? Is it because police, lawyer and FBI careers are involved, and film and TV rights to be considered?

Dr MacDonald said he didn’t kill his wife and daughters and he didn’t transport their bodies anywhere as the Army CID and FBI and Dr Brussel claim happened. I believe him. Dr MacDonald also said that Colette didn’t murder her daughters as some so-called CID agents have suggested. I certainly believe Dr MacDonald about that.

otherwise, he wouldn't have wiped it down, and IMO he would have noticed it out on the counter before he "left" because he'd have needed it again to make his way in the dark.

The Ramsey's did not need to wander their own house with a flashlight.LOL

Let's not forget the neighbor who saw "strange light" in the kitchen of the Ramsey home that night. That might have been from the flashlight.

Anyone can speculate about the Ramseys if they want to. Anyone who was named as suspects through official documents can be speculated about. Every theory that names the most popular suspects is often challenged by others on the forum at some point or another. There is no policy that forbids the topic of the Ramseys being discussed as suspects. However, most people on this forum do not believe the Ramseys killed their daughter, so RDI theories are challenged based on the best evidence we have at this time.

If you want to discuss the Ramseys, go ahead.

I'm curious now if the whole flashlight was covered in rubber or just a rubber endcap.

I don't think the "lighted end" was the end used (if the flashlight was in fact the head-bashing weapon). It was the other end that Dave did his experiments with, wasn't it?

edited to add: One would think that CBI would have found SOME form of trace evidence on the kitchen-counter-flashlight. Unless they have been keeping it a controlled secret (highly doubtful, given Steve Thomas's tell-all book), I doubt they found any hair or skin on the flashlight and therefore doubt the flashlight was THE weapon used, but who knows. I suspect the kitchen-counter-flashlight was left there by one of the earlier-arriving police officers.

According to the ACandyRose website it was Officer Weiss who first noticed the flashlight on the kitchen counter. From what I can gather that flashlight mysteriously vanished later on. Linda Arndt was blamed for that, perhaps unfairly.

I must say it does seem strange to me that if the murder weapon was the flashlight that the murderer would be so careless as to leave it on the kitchen counter. In the Dr MacDonald case the murder weapons were found outside the back door. In that case there didn't seem to be any forensic evidence on the murder weapons that pointed at any murderer in particular.

There is a story that Priscilla White was noticed scrubbing the kitchen counter with a household chemical cleaner on the day JonBenet's body was discovered. I can't find any exact reference to that matter at the moment. I've never discovered exactly who noticed, or reported, that Priscilla incident.

I think it was Officer Barry Harkopp who interviwed the neighbors, like Melody Stanton and Scott Gibbons, about seeing and hearing suspicious activities, and sounds and strange lights in the Ramsey kitchen area that JonBenet murder night.

The story of the flashlight vanishing, and then supposedly being found at the Boulder police station a few months later is a complete mystery to me. I can't quite see how the Boulder police can be so sure that it was exactly the same flashlight, and that the wrong flashlight was forensically tested, a bit like some of the handwriting exemplars.

I believe the flashlight is on the crime scene photos, which was why Patsy was questioned about the flashlight in 1998 by Tom Haney. Patsy couldn't understand at the time why if it was a Ramsey flashlight what it was doing on the kitchen counter in the crime scene photos. She told Tom Haney that it wasn't normally kept there.

This is how the Boulder Daily Camera reported the flashlight business in 1998:

"Magazine: JonBenet flashlight found
By CHRISTOPHER ANDERSON, Camera Staff Writer
Monday, January 12, 1998

A flashlight possibly used to inflict a fatal head wound on 6-year-old JonBenet Ramsey was found during a review of evidence at Boulder police headquarters, according news reports.

The flashlight was first spotted on a kitchen counter in the Ramsey home on Dec. 26, 1996, the first day of the investigation, but had disappeared, according to an article in this week's issue of Time magazine.

After Boulder Police Cmdr. Mark Beckner ordered a review of all case files and materials, almost a year later, a flashlight was found in an evidence storage room at police headquarters.

The flashlight does not appear to belong to any police officers, according to the magazine.

"Cops had long suspected that a weighty black flashlight was used to inflict the fatal 8-inch head wound on the six-year-old beauty queen after she was garroted," reported Dick Woodbury, Time's Denver bureau chief.

Boulder Police Chief Tom Koby declined to comment on the report.

"We have never commented on rumors and speculations, and we are going to stay consistent with that," City of Boulder spokeswoman Leslie Aaholm said.

Ramsey was found slain in the basement of her parents' home Dec. 26, 1996. No arrests have been made. In addition to the massive skull fracture, she was found strangled with a garrote made from a broken paint brush found in the home. There were also signs of possible sexual abuse.

The flashlight has been sent to the Colorado Bureau of Investigations for lab testing, according to the brief article, which appears in the magazine's "Scoop" section.

"Police believe the flashlight's heavy rubber coating seems consistent with an instrument that could deliver a crushing blow yet not cause bleeding," the magazine reports, without identifying a source.

A flashlight was listed among several blunt objects collected at the Ramsey's Boulder home, according to four search warrants released Sept. 29.

Other seized items, which could have been used to strike Ramsey, included a baseball bat, golf clubs, a red clay brick and a hammer."

Me neither!

A stun gun injury is an electrical burn, it's a burn essentially. And these don't look like burns.

http://www.paktronix.com/stun93.html

a. Skin - All twenty subjects exhibited the typical "signature response", specifically a punctate reddening of the skin at 10 minutes post shock limited to a 3-5mm diameter circle directly under each probe. Five out of 20 showed small wheals at the stimulus site. All of these hive-like elevations had disappeared at 1 to 2 hours. Only one case, a man of mediterranean ancestry, showed residual markings at 24 hours and these were gone in 2 days. No burns or other permanent markings were ever noted.

NO "electrical burns" were EVER noted.

From A LIVING PERSON, yes. Of course, if one dies soon after the application, the marks are 'frozen' (so to speak).

The light was found on the kitchen counter; not the kitchen table.

Mag-lites are not rubber-encased; the heavy cast aluminum Mag-lites are often used by LE and are used by cops as a club when needed.

IMO the Mag-lite was not the murder weapon. It's only 12-inches long and weighs just two pounds. There wouldn't have been enough VELOCITY achieved by swinging a 12-inch-long two-pound object to have split JonBenet's skull in two.

IMO the murder weapon was a baseball bat. Bats also weigh only about two pounds, but they are almost three feet long, thus able to provide perhaps 3 to 4 times the velocity of a flashlight. (ANALOGY: Picture Babe Ruth at the plate swinging a two-pound baseball bat that was only 12-inches long; he likely wouldn't have ever been able to hit the ball out of the infield. But with a two-pound 36-inch-long bat in his hands he was able to hit 60 home runs in one season.)

BlueCrab

What do you mean, "yep, there was discussion..." Discussion by who?

What I understood was there was light shining in the hallway, and JonBenét's door was left ajar so the light wouldn't disturb her, but she could still be heard if she called out. See, I would be very interested in the 'discussion' about Patsy using a flashlight to check on JonBenét.

somewhere along the line i read that patsy used a flashlight to check on jb's wet/dry bed status. it's out here somewhere..i'll keep digging.

Everyone seemed to buy the flashlight as the weapon, as a fact is it tenable? I don't buy it, I have always believed the baseball bat found outside , with fibers from the basement, was the weapon.

FLASHLIGHT: According to testimony from the police interviews, the Ramseys said the flashlight was kept in a drawer in the butler's kitchen.

SECURITY LIGHT: According to neighbor Diane Brumfit, the security light on the south-east corner of the sunroom was turned off that night -- the first time in years the light wasn't left on all night.

BlueCrab

THREAD CLOSED

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