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Subject: "Disliked as sufficient motivation?" Archived thread - Read only
 
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Conferences Ramsey Discussion 1 Topic #451
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DonBradley
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11-16-04, 09:24 AM (EST)
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"Disliked as sufficient motivation?"
 
   From time to time various posters have brought up the topic of motivation on the part of the intruder. Its difficult since we don't know if it is motive to rape, motive to murder, motive to inflict pain and suffering on the actual victim or motive to inflict pain and suffering on the parents.

I've occasionally speculated about a presumed weirdo who observed JonBenet stepping on a sidewalk crack and not seeing the parents immediately punish her for this, decided to teach those evil parents a lesson. I merely use this as an example of the multitude of ways it is possible for the family to have interacted with some nutcase and not have known it.

I've also speculated on some incident such as John Ramsey leaving an office building that was equipped with a heavy door and inadvertantly letting it bump into the person who was behind him. Such unknown and unknowable incident might have sparked a desire for revenge of some sort, but obviously the person would already have to have had a few problems.

Its been commented on before that Patsy's style of interior decoration was sometimes thought to have been to "Southern flouncy" to suit the more "rustic simplicity" tastes of Boulder. However, I doubt items were imported from Atlanta, alot of the decoration had to have been from the local area. I believe a high chair of some sort for JonBenet was purchased at a Boulder antique store. I've never thought interior decorating styles were a motive for murder. The prices and fees charged might be, but not the styles.

We've thought workmen might have been unpaid by a sub-contractor but blamed the Ramseys because they were the owners, however, no one seems to have been located who was unpaid and all the rennovations had been completed previously.

Business motives have been considered although most businessmen are more concerned with money than revenge and would merely seek an adjustment in price if the wrong style of computer monitors had been delivered. Even if some shipment of CAD-CAM equipment had gone awry and an employee had been discharged, it seems difficult to blame John Ramsey personally and then kill his daughter on account of a fouled-up business transaction.

So... how about a thread on whether being disliked to some degree for some reason makes the family a target or should we be looking in a different direction for a motive?


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  Subject     Author     Message Date     ID  
Disliked as sufficient motivation? [View All] DonBradley 11-16-04 TOP
  RE: Political? Evening2 11-16-04 1
     RE: Political? DonBradley 11-16-04 2
         RE: Political? Dave 11-17-04 3
             RE: Political? DonBradley 11-17-04 4
                 RE: precipitating events BraveHeart 11-17-04 5
                     RE: precipitating events one_eyed_Jack 11-18-04 6
                         RE: precipitating events BraveHeart 11-18-04 7
                             One-Eyed Jack: Astronomical Odds Dave 11-18-04 8
                                 RE: Odd BraveHeart 11-19-04 9
                                 RE: One-Eyed Jack: Astronomical Odds one_eyed_Jack 11-19-04 10
                                     RE: One-Eyed Jack: Astronomical Odds DonBradley 11-19-04 11
                                         RE: One-Eyed Jack: Astronomical Odds DonBradley 11-19-04 12
  RE: Disliked as sufficient motivation? one_eyed_Jack 11-19-04 13
     RE: Disliked as sufficient motivation? Dave 11-19-04 14
         A Little Bit More Technical Dave 11-19-04 15
     RE: Disliked as sufficient motivation? one_eyed_Jack 11-19-04 16
         RE: Disliked as sufficient motivation? one_eyed_Jack 11-19-04 17
             Patsy Dave 11-19-04 18
             RE: Disliked as sufficient motivation? DonBradley 11-19-04 19
                 RE: Disliked as sufficient motivation? Ashley 11-19-04 20
                     RE: activities BraveHeart 11-19-04 21
                         RE: activities one_eyed_Jack 11-19-04 22
                             RE: activities Margoo 11-19-04 23
  Nutcase ?? DonBradley 11-20-04 24
     Adult Sphere DonBradley 11-20-04 25
         RE: Adult Sphere one_eyed_Jack 11-20-04 26
             RE: Adult Sphere DonBradley 11-20-04 27
                 Patsy's World is Our World Dave 11-20-04 28
                     RE: Patsy's World is Our World Margoo 11-20-04 29
                         RE: Patsy's World Margoo 11-20-04 30
                             The Access Article appears Maikai 11-20-04 31
                                 RE: The Access Article appears Evening2 11-20-04 32
  RE: Disliked as sufficient motivation? DonBradley 11-21-04 33
     Non-inclusion to a party? Maikai 11-21-04 34
         RE: two different mind sets BraveHeart 11-22-04 35
  RE: Disliked as sufficient motivation? DonBradley 11-26-04 36
     RE: Disliked as sufficient motivation? Margoo 11-26-04 37
         risk taker? DonBradley 11-26-04 38
  DB --- Post #33 Dave 11-27-04 39
     RE: Dave's post BraveHeart 11-28-04 40
     RE: DB --- Post #33 DonBradley 11-28-04 41
         RE: DB --- Post #33 Dave 11-28-04 42
             RE: DB --- Post #33 DonBradley 11-28-04 43
                 RE: two incidents BraveHeart 11-29-04 44
  RE: Disliked as sufficient motivation? DonBradley 12-04-04 45
     RE: Disliked as sufficient motivation? one_eyed_Jack 12-18-04 46
         SubSet Analysis or Fragmenting the Crime DonBradley 12-18-04 47
             Two makes sense to me..... Maikai 12-19-04 48
                 RE: Two makes sense to me..... one_eyed_Jack 12-19-04 49
                     One-eyed..... Maikai 12-19-04 50
  THREAD CLOSED DonBradley 12-20-04 51

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Evening2
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11-16-04, 11:45 AM (EST)
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1. "RE: Political?"
In response to message #0
 
   Since John Ramsey recently entered into the polital arena in Michigan, I wonder if he had ever been known to have a desire to enter the polital arena of Boulder/Colorado?


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DonBradley
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11-16-04, 01:38 PM (EST)
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2. "RE: Political?"
In response to message #1
 
   There is no basis on which to conclude that anyone could have reasonably assumed that John Ramsey held any political ambitions when he was in Boulder, Colorado. At the time, John Ramsey was a businessman who was not active in politics at all.

The only political aspects to this case appear to be the possible link to zoning variances for some properties such as Helgoth's junkyard and the Perl Street redevelopment that later became the site of a building housing Access Graphics as a tenant.


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Dave
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11-17-04, 10:56 AM (EST)
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3. "RE: Political?"
In response to message #2
 
   I agree with Don. Most technical people (and John is a BSEE, MBA --- that is B.S. in electrical engineering and a Master's in business administration) have a VERY low opinion of politics. It could hardly be much lower. I think John's interest in politics originated from the horrible events in Boulder.


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DonBradley
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11-17-04, 11:48 AM (EST)
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4. "RE: Political?"
In response to message #3
 
   Very good!!

John Ramsey suffered a horrendous ordeal in Boulder, Colorado and ran for public office in Charlevoix, Michigan eight years later.

Very good example of an event precipitating an action which is unusual and unexpected for the individual involved.

Now, what sort of 'event' could have been causally related to Sick Puppy's later adventures and where did it take place?


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BraveHeart
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11-17-04, 08:02 PM (EST)
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5. "RE: precipitating events"
In response to message #4
 
   LAST EDITED ON 11-17-04 AT 08:02 PM (EST)
 
Molested as a kid.
With a sister molested as a young teen or pre-teen.

Raised in harsh discipline, blue collar dad, who maybe
was alcoholic natural father or step dad,

expected to be more manly than he was, a loner, probably ridiculed by father, trauma of molestation

result: partial to under priviledged kids but jealous of priviledged children

Ambivalent sexuality, mostly hetero but bi tendencies, normal sexual drive but conflicted with feelings of guilt, tries to overcome guilt and shame thru mental and emotional effort but unsuccessfull, displaces shame and frustration toward traditional life style/staus quo types thru resentment/anger,

Still hurt by sister's molestation. Blames societal dual, victorian standards

Reactively sought manhood in out door activities to prove self, risk taker, outwardly a big BShrter, inwardly always unsure, puts on a front, loses it emotionally on precipitating occasions,

Seeks areas of control to aleviate feelings of depression and helplessness originating in childhood from uncontrolable circumstances, an activist, a shaper of thoughts thru discourse/writing/campaigning

resents sucessful people, his own dominating father, generalized to all authority figures


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one_eyed_Jack
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11-18-04, 11:10 AM (EST)
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6. "RE: precipitating events"
In response to message #5
 
   That was very thorough, Braveheart. I particularly agreed with the false bravado yet inwardly insecure.

IF John Douglas is correct in his assessment of the Ramsey case as bearing a resemblance to the Annie Laurie Hearins case, it was bitterness over a lawsuit that motivated Annie's killer to act.

The only other case I have found so far that bears a resemblance to the Hearins case is the Marion Parker case. The killer was motivated by being discharged from his employ by Marion Parker's father.

There is also the aggressive segment of the transient population at the time to consider. John Ramsey's work and home environment were both areas transients populated. As I understand it, class lines were distinct between the wealthy and the poor breeding resentment toward the higher class.

However, my personal view, at this time, is that JonBenét had seen and spoken with her killer before and that the killer had some knowledge of the home and family. Because of the rope and where it was located, I think it's possible the offender knew of JAR and that sometimes he was home and sometimes he wasn't. So, if my view is correct, under what circumstances would a transient come to be known by JonBenét or gain inside information? I think someone would notice and remember JonBenét speaking with a transient. I also think it is a bit more than coincidence that JonBenét would be insistent on the fact that she would be receiving a special visit from Santa after Christmas and then actually have a special visit after Christmas.

Though not impossible, the odds seem astronomical to me that the 118,000 figure was completely unrelated to JR's bonus amount. (It wasn't even actually a bonus, was it?) It makes little sense to me the notewriter would not have a monetary figure in mind before entering the home. So, this could indicate some prior knowledge, but not necessarily. It could be he was planning on asking for less until he saw the 118,000 figure. It could be the figure was used because there is something about John receiving that amount that angered the offender. It could also be the offender used that amount to make it appear the crime had something to do with John's business when it did not. This could explain the odd statement about respecting John's business and the possible deliberate misspelling of the word 'business.'


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BraveHeart
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11-18-04, 01:08 PM (EST)
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7. "RE: precipitating events"
In response to message #6
 
   "there is something about John receiving that amount that angered the offender."

Exactly!


http://www.webbsleuths.org/cgi-bin/dcforum/dcboard.cgi?az=read_count&om=65&forum=DCForumID37#18

Just after midnight on November 15, 1959, two ex-cons entered the home of Herbert Clutter, a hard working, successfull, and well respected farmer in rural western Kansas. They wore gloves, carried tape, cord, flashlight and shotgun. They woke the family, bound them,
taped their mouths and then brutally executed Herb, his wife and two teenaged children.
The crime received national attention and a few years later was detailed in Truman Capote's book, "In Cold Blood". A movie was made in 1966 based on the book and this was shown on national tv November 24, and 26, 1996 on the 37th. anniversary of the crime


In his book, Capote details Perry's quest for adventure and treasure. Perry's dad took him prospecting in Alaska when he was younger and the idea of perpetuating this life of wanderlust had been his obsession. In a conversation with Dick after the murder he reveals his favorite movie: "The Treasure of The Sierra Madre". He had seen it 8 times.

In the movie Humphrey Bogart plays the part of a broke
American in Mexico, who is cheated out of three weeks wages. He
attacks his boss in the cantina and takes his share of the money from his wallet.

He and his buddy use the money to fund a trip to the mountains to look for gold. The old prospector, who reminds Perry of his dad (nicknamed the Lone Wolf), agrees to act as guide for the men but he warns them that gold has a way of turning good men into greedy thieves. The three men do find a lot of gold. Bogart's character turns greedy and steals all of it and heads out across the desert toward the nearest town. Mexican banditos intercept and kill him. In
turn, the Federalies execute the bandits and as the movie ends, the gold dust is being blown away by the wind. Perry doesn't understand the film's message"...BUT THE KILLER DOES.

"The killer thinks that John Ramsey and a friend moved to the mountains to find their fortune. John became very successful and turned on his friend, firing him. When the..." CORPORATION GIVES THE EQUIVILENT AMOUNT OF MERRICK'S CLAIM FOR BACK WAGES TO JOHN THE KILLER FINDS OUT ABOUT IT AND IT INFURIATES HIM. THE KILLER "...sees corporate executives as the foreman in The Treasure of the Sierra Madre who tries to cheat Bogart and his buddy. Extreme personal wealth is evil, turning otherwise good men into greedy ones who will turn on others. THIS IS THE EXACT SAME THING THAT HAPPENED AT AG!

Capote spends quite a bit of time developing Hickock's resentment of rich guys who get the good looking dames. When Richard feels guilty for his pedophilic attraction to young girls, several of whom he has seduced, he defends his behavior by insisting rich guys feel and do the same thing with prepubescent girls but get away with it because they can lawyer up. He relishes the thought of using a knife to gain power over them, and stealing their girls."

THE KILLER HAS TRIED TO CREATE THIS SAME SENARIO IN JOHN AS THE RICH GUY THAT GETS AWAY WITH EVERYTHING.

Excerpted from Jams webpage on the Clutter murders:

PERRY'S SENTIMENTS & EXPLANATION OF HIS MOTIVATION:

"Perry Smith - "They never hurt me. Like other people. Like people have all my life.
MAYBE IT'S JUST THAT THE CLUTTERS WERE THE ONES WHO HAD TO PAY FOR IT"

THE KILLER'S MOTIVE:
"MAYBE IT'S JUST THAT THE RAMSEYS WERE THE ONES WHO HAD TO PAY FOR IT" Of course the Clutters fell into Dick and Perry's radar because Dick's prison cell mate had previously worked for Mr. Clutter. And the Ramseys and this event (the bonus amount & Merrick incident) was known to some AG employee WHO KNOWS THE KILLER.


HOW THE KILLER PREACHES HIS SERMON:

The movie "Seven", released in 1995, concerns a fictional series of murders based on the "7 Deadly Sins" of Dante's "Inferno". The pathologically self-righteous killer, chillingly played by Kevin Spacey, turns each crime scene into a "sermon". Each of his victims are chosen as a particularly appropriate representative of each sin and the means of their death is sadistically calculated to make them "atone" for their sin. An obese man, for example, is forced to eat until he explodes internally. The word "gluttony" is found written in grease on the wall behind the refrigerator. A crooked lawyer is forced to cut off a pound of his own flesh; the word "greed" is then written on the floor with his blood. A prideful model has her face hideously disfigured and is given the choice of "facing" life or committing suicide. At each crime scene the murderer, known as John Doe, has purposefully left clues that lead to the next victim. He revels in the control he thus exercises over the police. His methodology demonstrates his superior intelligence. At the end he surrenders to the detectives and manipulates them into participating in the last murder. On the way to the scene of the last murder The young detective played by Brad Pitt rails at John Doe for being a pervert and for murdering innocent people. John Doe responds: "innocent? Is that supposed to be funny?". He then reveals his philosophy and reasons for the killings. Sin is so common place. It is on every corner. Someone has to call attention to the evilness and pervasiveness of it all. John Doe is that instrument chosen to get every one's attention. You have to hit them over the head with a sledgehammer any more to get their attention, he says. You have to be dramatic. The victims deserved to die, in the way they did. You'd like to get me in a "windowless room" wouldn't you detective?, he asks, meaning a place of judgement where no one could see him work the pervert over. At the chosen site a box is delivered to the detectives, which turns out to CONTAINS THE HEAD of the detective's wife. In shock and rage he shoots John Doe. In Doe's mind, Pitt becomes as much a killer as Doe at that point, demonstrating his hypocrisy and sin of anger. Doe, himself, becomes the last victim, having committed the sin of envy...of envying the detective's relationship with his wife.

LIKEWISE "...the killer(s) of JonBenet Ramsey purposed to make certain statements about his philosophy and motive, his resentments and the faults of certain groups and philosophies OF WHICH THE Ramseys are representative, IN THE CRIME SCENE.

THE KILLER HAS WATCHED A LOT OF MOVIES AND HE IS VERY MUCH IN TOUCH WITH THE MESSAGES THEY PRESENT AND IN TOUCH WITH THE MESSAGES HE BELIEVES IN. THE MOVIES SEVEN, TREASURE, IN COLD BLOOD, COMPULSION, ROPE and RICOCHET tell his story and the clues to these movies and his message are in the RN, the FL, the ranson amount, the cord, the revenge motive, the framing of the killer's target and the destruction of his reputation, anmd so on and so on....blah blah..

This guy doesn't know the Ramseys but their personna, their image, their assummed status in society all tweak his buttons. He has a lot of resentment built up over the years concerning these types of people. He would make a very good BORG poster. That represents his very strong prejudices.

Dig out the employee list for AG 1996 and start looking for people in that circle who would havce known about Merrick and his claim and John's bonus and someone in their realm of aquaintences who could be characterized as an activist, anarchist, (see previous profile)...


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Dave
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11-18-04, 03:45 PM (EST)
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8. "One-Eyed Jack: Astronomical Odds"
In response to message #7
 
   One-Eyed Jack,

Recently you posted:

"Though not impossible, the odds seem astronomical to me that the 118,000 figure was completely unrelated to JR's bonus amount."

No, the odds are not astronomical against the figure being totally unrelated to the bonus. Not at all.

If you look at the financial statements of any person that has any kind of 401K and who is the CEO, COO, or some such officer in a corporation, a homeowner with a valuable home, and so on, you should see numerous amounts in the hundreds of thousands of dollars. So no matter what the amount of the ransom demand, as long as it was chose to be in the range of a few hundred thousand dollars, it is not that big of a coincidence that one should match one such number. The fact that there is another match to the 118,000 figure in the story about John Ramsey and his business dealings confirms that the number 118,000 may be merely coincidental to the bonus amount (Merrick's claim against Access Graphics as reported by Schiller).

Suppose the bonus amount was $100,047.38 and the ransom amount was $100,000. Would you say that the odds against these amounts being unrelated was astronomical? Or would you say that this is probably a coincidence? What about $150,047.38 and $150,000? Probably still a coincidence? $158,047.38 and $158,000? Now suddenly the odds against a coincidence are astronomical?

Another way of looking at it: The perpetrator decides to ask for a few hundred thousand, say less than $250,000 in round thousands. There are only 150 possibilities between $100,000 and $249,000, inclusive. If the Ramseys have numerous financial statements with many accounts having amounts in this same range, they have a lot of numbers with each number having a little less than a one percent chance of matching. If there are many such amounts, the total chance of one matching becomes quite a few percent. If you are also lenient in the method of rounding (truncation versus rounding to nearest, etc.), then it's even larger.

-------------------------

Now let's consider the perpetrator. He may have chosen the number 118 thousands for some completely different reason out of millions or billions of possibilities. This number just so happens to match one of the Ramseys' financial statements. Now his reason is totally obscured. This could easily have been an error on his part. He may have been trying to say something by choosing this amount. It is entirely possible that he didn't appreciate how likely it was that his target may have some financial statement with an amount very close to what he chose, possibly because he himself does not deal with such financial statements, and the thought never occurred to him.

I'm trying to dissuade anyone from fixating on the bonus amount, regardless of how tempting that may be. Yes, it's certainly possible, but no, the likelihood isn't nearly as great as some assume. Not only would I not assign it a likelihood of 99.99999%, I wouldn't even give it a 90% chance. Maybe somewhere near half of that, slightly less on weekends --- just kidding.


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BraveHeart
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11-19-04, 00:56 AM (EST)
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9. "RE: Odd"
In response to message #8
 
   The odd amount of money was called that because it is an odd amount (for a kidnapping), not because there are only 150 possible numbers between 100,000 and 250,000.

If I randomly chose a series of numbers between 100,000 and 250,000 and gave you the chance to guess the number after each selection was, how likely would it be that you would guess the correct number? I say it wouldn't be very likely at all, even through 150 tries. Why should we restrict the range of numbers so much? I would expect an amount like $1,000,000 or $500,000 in a kidnapping. That, of course would increase the odds, but again, the number is odd not because it is a number but because it is an odd ransom amount. The fact that it is not exactly the amount of John's bonus and not exactly the amount of Merrick's claim for back wages but ALMOST the same as BOTH means something to me. Otherwise, I'd expect it to match exactly one or the other, or some other number. This is probably the only Ransom amount ever recorded in history that wasn't rounded off. THAT IS WHY IT MEANS SOMETHING.

If this were a faux kidnapping attempt I'd still expect the amount to seem real, if the killer really wanted to fool people.


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one_eyed_Jack
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11-19-04, 01:19 AM (EST)
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10. "RE: One-Eyed Jack: Astronomical Odds"
In response to message #8
 
   Hi Dave,

118,000, though? If it was a rounded figure, I could understand it being coincidence, but who asks for 118,000 at all? I see what you are saying about the coincidence of the Merrick affair, yet Braveheart appears to think they are all three related.

On the other hand, if someone left a random figure on a ransom note in my home, there would probably be more than several references from paperwork to books that would have the same number or very close. Although, I don't believe there would be anything indicating I might have that much in the bank I could get my hands on right away.

I also think it unlikely the note writer had no idea of what figure he would be asking for. Why in the world would he dig through John's paperwork trying to come up with a figure? He wouldn't unless the plan for the note came after entry to the home or he was going to ask for a smaller amount before he saw the paystubs.

About the only thing I can say with any surety is that the figure meant something to the writer. It's just too oddball not to have a purpose.


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DonBradley
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11-19-04, 05:25 AM (EST)
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11. "RE: One-Eyed Jack: Astronomical Odds"
In response to message #10
 
   I too have considered that although it is possible that in rummaging about the home he encountered that bonus figure and decided to use it, it is more likely than not that he entered the home with that amount in mind just as he entered the home with murder, not kidnapping on his mind. The entire note was a taunt, the amount of the ransom was absurdly low as an insult to them. That particular number meant 'something' to the intruder and I think it is pure chance that it approximates the bonus or is the same amount as some salesman at AG claimed was owed to him.


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DonBradley
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11-19-04, 07:03 AM (EST)
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12. "RE: One-Eyed Jack: Astronomical Odds"
In response to message #11
 
   There have been zillions of suggestions as to the meaning of SBTC. If we were to total them all up, we might well arive at a sum total of 118,000 suggested meanings having been posted. Coincidences do happen and its possible that it was a sheer fluke that the unusual amount of the ransom note approximated a figure that could have been found in the dumpster or in various files in the den/office area of the home that afternoon.

The figure of 118,000 and also the figure of dollar amounts rather close to 118,000 have been linked to a number of suspects, however, so far nothing appears to have lead in the intervening years to anything interesting or incriminating.


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one_eyed_Jack
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11-19-04, 09:59 AM (EST)
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13. "RE: Disliked as sufficient motivation?"
In response to message #0
 
   It could be like my birth date. Through the years I've noticed that significant events throughout history have happened on my birth date. Either the world revolves around me, or it's just a coincidence.

If the note was a taunt, wouldn't we expect the note to have some meaning to John Ramey, though? The only thing he has been able to come up with is the bonus amount, I believe.


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Dave
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11-19-04, 10:36 AM (EST)
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14. "RE: Disliked as sufficient motivation?"
In response to message #13
 
   Braveheart - One-Eyed-Jack,

I agree that the number 118 or 118,000 "means something" <1> to the perpetrator, although it could have been selected purely to pique curiosity as could SBTC; it doesn't necessarily mean very much. Both of these could have been selected purely to diffentiate this ransom note from all others in history. It isn't at all clear that it should mean any more to John Ramsey than SBTC does. I think we all agree that SBTC doesn't mean anything to John --- don't we?

The problem is that if any perpetrator selects a unusual ransom amount for ANY particular reason whatsoever, and someone goes through the victims' paperwork, finding a matching number, most people with little training in statistics will miscalculate the odds against this being merely a coincidence. They will probably claim that the connection between the ransom amount and the financial paperwork should be obvious to everyone. This is exactly what is happening in the Ramsey case, and it is an error in mathematical reasoning. It is not necessarily an error in fact; it is possible that they are connected. I don't claim otherwise, only that the odds are being miscalculated. The odds against a coincidence are not anywhere near "astronomical."

-------------------

<1> "Means something" is merely "NOT 'means nothing,'" a trivial criterion to satisfy.


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Dave
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11-19-04, 10:57 AM (EST)
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15. "A Little Bit More Technical"
In response to message #14
 
   LAST EDITED ON 11-19-04 AT 11:44 AM (EST)
 
Braveheart,

I thought I should separate this post addressing issues you raised from the previous post because it's slightly more technical.

If we consider the distribution of all ransom amounts, including those in novels, TV shows, and movies, it seems safe to say that there would be peaks at precisely even amounts of 10's of thousands, 100's of thousands, and millions. However, if we move off of these amounts by only one dollar, the peaks disappear completely. What is left if we exclude the peaks? Probably a nearly nonexistent distribution that LOCALLY looks uniform. This is why it's perfectly reasonable, without more data on actual distributions, to assume that it's random.

Why restrict the range? Financial amounts are not uniformly distributed. The large peaks of ransom amounts are probably not uniformly distributed either, but that's less of a concern. The number of financial amounts between $100,000 and $250,000 is not the same as between $850,000 and $1,000,000, even though these have the same range (namely $150,000). This probably has to do with the fact that the range is a far smaller portion of the amount in the latter case than in the former. In other words, even though the range is the same, the percentage, therefore the precision, is completely different. So if we consider a range of financial values as LOCALLY uniform (as described in the previous paragraph), we must restrict the range. Another way to handle it would be to consider nonuniform distributions, but to do that I'd feel obligated to go off and do some financial research on actual distributions. I don't have time to do that myself.

-------------------------------

ADDED: I neglected to address the example you described for a choice of numbers. The example you described doesn't match the situation for the Ramsey case. This isn't picking one number, then guessing, picking another one, then guessing. It's picking one number then guessing over and over and over again an unspecified number of times. It's very likely (100%) that I would guess your number if you let me guess 150 times. Even picking randomly, it's 63% = (1.0 - (149/150)^150).


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one_eyed_Jack
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11-19-04, 11:16 AM (EST)
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16. "RE: Disliked as sufficient motivation?"
In response to message #13
 
   "If this were a faux kidnapping attempt I'd still expect the amount to seem real, if the killer really wanted to fool people."

That's what I would expect. Even if JonBenét were nowhere to be found that day, I think the police would be looking hard into that 118,000 figure.


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one_eyed_Jack
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11-19-04, 11:35 AM (EST)
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17. "RE: Disliked as sufficient motivation?"
In response to message #16
 
   Dave,
That's a good point about the SBTC sign off. Doesn't mean a thing to John Ramsey. Even the 'good southern common sense" remark has more to do with Patsy than it does with John unless it has something to do with his business roots.

Sometimes, I wonder if we shouldn't be looking more into Patsy's world than John's for a source of motivation if this indeed was motivated by dislike. There are some indications the offender was known by JonBenét, and she spent more time with Patsy than she did with John.


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Dave
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11-19-04, 12:02 PM (EST)
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18. "Patsy"
In response to message #17
 
   Hi One-Eyed Jack,

Yes, I agree. In fact, this is all quite suspicious to me --- the note totally neglecting Patsy whom is arguably more affected by John by the loss of their daughter. I have argued previously, and long ago, that the author of the note appears to be portraying closeness to John and that this may be a ruse, part of the motivation for leaving a note in the first place. There is also no mention of JonBenét's name in the note, merely "your daughter." To me these two incidences of neglect suggest an attempt to distance oneself from both Patsy and JonBenét rather than not knowing their names. So I see in the ransom note some clues suggesting movement away from Patsy and JonBenét and towards John. Most people seem to follow right along this path. OK, somebody's got an issue or two with John.... Hmmm, maybe not.


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DonBradley
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11-19-04, 12:08 PM (EST)
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19. "RE: Disliked as sufficient motivation?"
In response to message #17
 
   Very good.
Yes, lets look at "Patsy's World".
Some have said that her decorating style was unfit for Boulder. I would hardly think this a sufficient motivation but we might indeed be dealing with a nutcase.

However, what was Patsy's world? The home, the school, the kids and their activiities. Oh sure there were some 'outside' activities such as at AG parties, shopping, NIH treatment center, etc. but in general it does not seem to be a world where one would be encountering a nutcase.

One can come up with some suspicions about 'the business world' because John Ramsey is a businessman, but what do you have when the person involved is a housewife?


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Ashley
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11-19-04, 12:17 PM (EST)
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20. "RE: Disliked as sufficient motivation?"
In response to message #19
 
   I'm convinced a woman wrote that note or dictated it. Of course a male killed her and they WERE close to the family. Very close.


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BraveHeart
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11-19-04, 01:22 PM (EST)
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21. "RE: activities"
In response to message #20
 
   The Patsy world included an art class on the Colorado campus, the pageants, the dance classes, the photograper studios, a tour of the home, a dinner for their church group in the home, the Episcopal church they attended and their aquaintances there, the beauty shop, the mall, Patsy Griffith home where dresses were made, their friends homes-White's, Fernie's, Susan (Stein?), the kids friends and their parents, PTA, New York City shopping, Charlevoix community, cycling, boating, flying, traveling, trips back to Georgia, trips for cancer treatment, "Charismatic" Christian circle, the magazine article,....

I agree that Patsy should be included as a target of the crime. I believe that the killer was aware of both and disliked both of them. The fact that the note is addressed to John and doesn't mention Patsy or JonBenet may be intentional- an attempt to focus away from the incident or manner in which the killer is related to them, for example, a student in the art class on campus who might not want to relate something relating that group with the crime; that would narrow the circle of suspects very quickly.


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one_eyed_Jack
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11-19-04, 03:46 PM (EST)
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22. "RE: activities"
In response to message #21
 
   Hi Don,
Patsy's world included lots of children. It's unclear to me whether JonBenét's killer is strictly sexually oriented toward children, but I think it takes a certain kind of person to assault the privates of a six year old girl even if his main motive was to create pain for surviving family members. I can't help but think of the scene in Dirty Harry where the killer/extortionist was cruising a playground with evident focused interest. Anywhere you find children, you'll likely find a nutcase even if he/she never acts on the impulses.

It's possible the offender was trying to obscure the true connection between himself and the Ramsey family by making it appear it was a business related upset toward John. IF the amount demanded in the note is related to John's bonus, it could explain why the offender needed to break in and go through John's business records before he could write the note. It could explain why the word, business, was misspelled. Although, why he/she mispelled, possession, I don't know.

It seems like there was an intent to confuse the scene, deliberately, but I don't know that either.

I have to admit I'm still disturbed about the Lucy attack and the connection between her and JonBenét through the dance studio. JonBenét lived a structured life. I think someone did tell JonBenét she would receive a special visit after Christmas, and the most likely places for that to have happened were within her adult social circle. Patsy would have been the one to escort her there.

My impression is the offender knew some things about the family but not enough to bring him under direct attention. He could have found out a few things from JonBenét.

The question about Patsy is the same as with John. What could either one of them done to have offended a nutcase to this degree?


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Margoo
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11-19-04, 08:53 PM (EST)
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23. "RE: activities"
In response to message #22
 
   I've been very lazy here by the fact that I've just been reading along following your discussions the past week or so. Just wanted you to know you are being 'read' and that I think the posts have been EXCELLENT.


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DonBradley
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11-20-04, 07:04 AM (EST)
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24. "Nutcase ??"
In response to message #0
 
   "...what could the Ramseys have done to offend a nutcase..."

Ofcourse there is the essential question of was this crime really the work of a nutcase.

Consider some of the points mentioned in this thread or some others that have arisen in past case discussions: decorating style, decorating fees, Foyer Dinner, NIH treatment, home tour, etc.

If it were a nutcase that had been offended in some way, are not nutcases more likely to fly off the handle at the time they are offended. Someone who hates the decorating style says so and leaves. He is thought of as rude and foolish and he is dismissed from thought. If he were to come back and kill the kid he would be doing it promptly, not biding his time for a few years.

A special sort of person to jab a paintbrush into a six year old girl's privates? No. I am not so certain that it takes someone who is a nutcase, just someone who is sufficiently motivated by either desire or hatred.

Why select Patsy Ramsey for her decorating style? Hasn't such a creep already written letters to the editor about maintaining Boulder's True West motif? Hasn't a nutcase already protested something else about Boulder's decorators that disturbs him? Why not start out with a little bit of "matchwork" at a fabric store or a decorator's showroom? Wouldn't that make a nice warm bonfire to boot?

Nutcase? Although I've posited the existence of this nutcase who was just livid when he saw those evil parents not punishing JonBenet for stepping on a sidewalk crack, I don't really think he exists. After all, if he did exist, wouldn't half the social workers and most of the cops in town already know him?


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DonBradley
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11-20-04, 07:47 AM (EST)
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25. "Adult Sphere"
In response to message #24
 
   >I have to admit I'm still disturbed about the Lucy attack and the
>connection between her and JonBenét through the dance studio.
Despite the snap decision of Linda Arndt that it was 'a boyfriend thing' the Lucy attack is serious in itself. As to its connection to the JBR case, the BPD downplays the similarity in home size, neighborhood type, actual proximity, lying in wait, and the dance studio connection.

>JonBenét lived a structured life.
I'm not sure about that, but she certainly was not some sort of latchkey kid.

>I think someone did tell JonBenét she would receive a special visit
>after Christmas, and the most likely places for that to have
>happened were within her adult social circle. Patsy would have been
>the one to escort her there.
You may well have an important point here. Although this 'special visit message' came afterwards and has been 'filtered' by recollection of what was at the time a rather trivial conversation, if indeed you accept the existence of the message then clearly it is indeed from an adult and from an adult that she encountered in her normal activities. Ofcourse playing in the yard might lead to such an encounter, but I think it more likely to have been a more normal encounter with one of the adults in and around the school, church, whatever. Since no one has stepped forward and explained that they said that to JonBenet and given a reason such as 'my daughter's birthday party is the 28th and we were going to have a Santa there', we are left to conclude that some adult gave JBR the second visit message and that most likely would mean a woman was involved. What males get to talk to six year old girls? Schoolbus driver, groundskeeper?



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one_eyed_Jack
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11-20-04, 08:22 AM (EST)
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26. "RE: Adult Sphere"
In response to message #25
 
   Dance studio instructors? I know of at least one male working at the dance studio when JonBenét was there.


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DonBradley
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11-20-04, 09:15 AM (EST)
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27. "RE: Adult Sphere"
In response to message #26
 
   Very good!

Ofcourse, a dance instructor.

And perhaps we should recall that 'Lucy' although much older than JonBenet was indeed very slightly built, so they could each have appealed to the same pervert.


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Dave
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11-20-04, 10:35 AM (EST)
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28. "Patsy's World is Our World"
In response to message #27
 
   Patsy's world is not isolated nor is it insulated. Researchers have shown that it's only about six hops from one person to any other person in the country, perhaps any other person in the world. For example, I didn't know Ronald Reagan, but I knew someone who knew someone who worked for him. Three hops. So it's very easy to imagine that Patsy either knew a sadistic pedophile or knew someone who knew someone who is a sadistic pedophile. Remember, it's about six hops on average to a specific person, so it's easily possible for it to be two hops to any one of hundreds or thousands of sadistic pedophiles.

It's also not necessary that Patsy did anything to "offend" the perpetrator. Patsy being Patsy or JonBenét being JonBenét may have been enough to attract the perpetrator's attention. The Ramseys were not necessarily the targets of an attack, perhaps merely convenient victims. For example, serial killers don't usually attack someone because of an offense, real or imagined, but instead because they are convenient victims, often of a particular type. JonBenét and the Ramsey family may have been of a particular type.

For example, if you're itching to invade an occupied house and attack the young girl inside, it's good to choose a bigger house. This implies more wealth, so you would look for "fat cats" with young daughters. An unemployed housewife who not only takes her daughter to beauty contests, but also buys her expensive costumes and provides dance lessons may be married to such a "fat cat" and live in a nice, big house. And so on.

A factor weighing heavily against some offense being the root cause of this crime is that this type of perpetrator is usually a predator and a sociopath. He used JonBenét, then disposed of her. This type of predator doesn't usually choose victims based on social reasons, but on personal desires or basic drives, albeit perverted ones. I'm not sure that it's productive to spend a lot of time trying to discover what particular event caused this crime to occur at the time or place it did. I think it's more because he wanted to do it at that time and place, like most predatory types of kills.


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Margoo
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11-20-04, 12:05 PM (EST)
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29. "RE: Patsy's World is Our World"
In response to message #28
 
   A factor weighing heavily against some offense being the root cause of this crime is that this type of perpetrator is usually a predator and a sociopath. He used JonBenét, then disposed of her. This type of predator doesn't usually choose victims based on social reasons, but on personal desires or basic drives, albeit perverted ones. I'm not sure that it's productive to spend a lot of time trying to discover what particular event caused this crime to occur at the time or place it did. I think it's more because he wanted to do it at that time and place, like most predatory types of kills.


That has always been my belief. The killer did everything he did because it met HIS needs at the time.

Since such predators have life experiences that cause psychological short circuiting, an inability to suppress their rage and act out with their 'uncontrollable' needs, JonBenét and Patsy seen together MAY, in tandem, have triggered this Sick Puppy's reasons for his sick needs --- very attractive Mother and Child demonstrating the ultimate 'fat cat' waste in pageants, or Southern Mother's over-indulgence in Pretty (spoiled?) Female Child. There may have been an 'in tandem' Super Trigger. While JonBenét MAY have caught his eye simply from being 'around' the neighborhood, this predator's observations of Patsy WITH JonBenét MAY have reinforced his interest in her (his inappropriate feelings, a need to 'interact' with her, triggering his dark side). This killer may have viewed Patsy and JonBenét as ultimate examples of 'fat cat' excess in Boulder, demonstrated by a spite-inducing Mother and Child relationship.


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Margoo
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11-20-04, 12:11 PM (EST)
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30. "RE: Patsy's World"
In response to message #29
 
   Don, for a long time we've discussed events that might have set Sick Puppy off. One 'event' that has not been mentioned (that I can recall) is Patsy's 40th birthday party. Maybe someone who was left off the guest list thought he SHOULD have been there, or, more likely, viewed the whole event as 'fat cat' excess.


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Maikai
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11-20-04, 10:19 PM (EST)
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31. "The Access Article appears"
In response to message #30
 
   to be a logical trigger and/or the Boulderado celebration.....the only one in the family mentioned in the article was John Ramsey, along with his picture. The note is directed at John Ramsey and the motive based on the note seems to be jealousy and dislike of "fatcats." Combine that with someone that got inspiration from "Ransom" and extortion of money from John Ramsey seems to be the original intent. If Patsy or even the beauty pageants were in the perp's mind, you'd think he would have made reference to either one.


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Evening2
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11-20-04, 11:07 PM (EST)
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32. "RE: The Access Article appears"
In response to message #31
 
   The Hotel Boulderado party was, I think, for employees to thank them for the success of AG. The party on the 23rd was for friends. Christmas was being celebrated with relatives in Michigan.

Maybe the Ramseys didn't include the killer in any of these categories and THAT was the trigger.


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DonBradley
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11-21-04, 05:56 AM (EST)
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33. "RE: Disliked as sufficient motivation?"
In response to message #0
 
   >"... A factor weighing heavily against some offense being the root cause of this crime is that this type of perpetrator is usually a predator and a sociopath. He used JonBenét, then disposed of her. This type of predator doesn't usually choose victims based on social reasons, but on personal desires or basic drives, albeit perverted ones. I'm not sure that it's productive to spend a lot of time trying to discover what particular event caused this crime to occur at the time or place it did. I think it's more because he wanted to do it at that time and place, like most predatory types of kills. ... "

Do you view this as the work of a predator and sociopath who probably could have addressed the note "Dear Occupant"? Or had just about as much connection with the Ramsey family as to be fairly close to that extreme?

It could be a predator and sociopath whom the Ramseys encountered at some time in some manner or it could be someone who wishes to appear as if he were such a remote, disinterested shadow.

If the note were "Dear Occupant, I've kidnapped your little girl because you live in a big house and probably have lots of money" we would indeed be inclined to look for someone without any precipitating event involving interaction with the Ramseys. Given the apparent lack of prior crimes how is it that we should view this intruder as a preditor and sociopath?



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Maikai
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11-21-04, 09:26 AM (EST)
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34. "Non-inclusion to a party?"
In response to message #33
 
   I don't think so....publicizing the success of the company and the timing of the crime seem to indicate, at least to me, a connection. The perp could have been perusing the papers looking for their next victim (ie: burglary)....or someone with a criminal past that knew of JR in some way, and hatched the plan. The note doesn't indicate the writer was too familiar with the family at all.


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BraveHeart
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11-22-04, 12:49 PM (EST)
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35. "RE: two different mind sets"
In response to message #34
 
   A criminal mind justifies his behavior or motive, quite apart from the triggering incident. The triggering event might be a nut case incident such as stepping on a sidewalk crack and breaking the nut case grandmother's back, or it might be that the company that John Ramsey worked for was owned by a weapons producing defense conglomerate which sold bombs and planes to countries that bombed little children. A perfectly justifiable reason. You can have a nut case mind, in other words, without having a criminal mind, and seemingly the other way around, if the reason doesn't seem so far fetched.


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DonBradley
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11-26-04, 05:11 AM (EST)
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36. "RE: Disliked as sufficient motivation?"
In response to message #0
 
   >From time to time various posters have brought up the topic
>of motivation on the part of the intruder. Its difficult
>since we don't know if it is motive to rape, motive to
>murder, motive to inflict pain and suffering on the actual
>victim or motive to inflict pain and suffering on the parents.

Okay, lets assume that it is indeed true that a 'nutcase' mind and a 'criminal' mind can be separated aspects of the intruder's psyche. If so, wouldn't his 'nuttiness' and 'criminality' have brought him to the attention of the community already? Irrespective of what degrees of nuttiness and criminality you attribute to him, he would not have had that door slammned in his face but once and then killed on account of it. Wouldn't he have a history of violence and aggression over such encounters in daily life? Why would JonBenet have been the one to step on a sidewalk crack and set this lunatic off?

Isn't it quite a bit more likely that the 'nutcase' and/or 'criminality' aspects are invalid assumptions on our part and that we are dealing with a perfectly sane, perfectly rational individual who functions quite well in society but simply has a set of values that we do not share?



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Margoo
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11-26-04, 09:30 AM (EST)
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37. "RE: Disliked as sufficient motivation?"
In response to message #36
 
   LAST EDITED ON 11-26-04 AT 10:13 AM (EST)
 
I'm not sure how we can assume he has not been detected as a nut or a criminal. Perhaps because he simply hasn't yet been identified as JBR's killer as well. I'm not sure how we can assume he is or is not a community-identified nut or criminal. As I've posted before, I believe he's a risk-taker and will have a record that reflects that. (I know this is an *obvious* statement, but ...)


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DonBradley
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11-26-04, 10:15 AM (EST)
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38. "risk taker?"
In response to message #37
 
   LAST EDITED ON 11-26-04 AT 10:25 AM (EST)
 
A risk taker can be some sort of adrenaline junkie who skydives. It doesn't mean he has come to the attention of the criminal justice system beyond perhaps receiving a few "fast driving awards" from time to time.

Do you think he would in fact have a criminal record as a result of his risk-taking? If he were a 'fat cat' he might get his thrills by driving on a racetrck and avoid even a speeding ticket.

on-edit: I know that Lou Smit has generally been of the opinion that the intruder was a criminal and that he was a pedophile. Much of Lou Smit's investigative efforts have been concentrated on known sex offenders who were known to have been in Boulder or atleast known to have been in Colorado in December of 1996. Its simply that I am trying to question this assumption that Sick Puppy is a criminal of any sort.

One aspect of this criminality personality is that prior involvement with the law would lead to his being more visible to the investigators. For instance, if he had a prior conviction and was registered in Boulder County as a sex offender, I would say he would be quite a bit more 'visible' than if he were an otherwise law abiding individual. Therefore he would be more likely to be identified.

It is simply that I can not see someone killing JonBenet Ramsey for any of the 'theoretical reasons' that have been proposed from time to time. If it was because John Ramsey slammed a heavy door in his face, I'm sure it was the umpteenth time someone had slammed a door in his face. If it was a sidewalk crack I'm sure there are a zillion kids in Boulder who step on the sidewalk cracks. So how does some sort of dislike become a sufficient motivation for an attack on JonBenet if he has never become enraged in the past by such door slamming or crack-stepping behavior?


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Dave
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11-27-04, 04:19 PM (EST)
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39. "DB --- Post #33"
In response to message #0
 
   Hi Don,

I'm responding to your post #33 above:

"Do you view this as the work of a predator and sociopath who probably could have addressed the note 'Dear Occupant?' Or had just about as much connection with the Ramsey family as to be fairly close to that extreme?"

As you know, I'm neither a socialogist nor a psychologist, but my understanding of a "sociopath" is that such a person could write "Dear Occupant" even if the addressee was the sociopath's spouse. That's what a sociopath is. So your question is very difficult to answer because any sociopath is going to be distant no matter how close we "normal" people would think they should be. I do not think it's someone who does not know the Ramseys at all, but that's just my impression. He seems to have targeted them.


"It could be a predator and sociopath whom the Ramseys encountered at some time in some manner or it could be someone who wishes to appear as if he were such a remote, disinterested shadow."

I think he wanted to make it appear that he knew John, but that he more likely knew JonBenét and therefore Patsy.


"If the note were 'Dear Occupant, I've kidnapped your little girl because you live in a big house and probably have lots of money' we would indeed be inclined to look for someone without any precipitating event involving interaction with the Ramseys. Given the apparent lack of prior crimes how is it that we should view this intruder as a preditor and sociopath?"

You are practically suggesting that we should "look for someone without any precipitating event involving interaction with the Ramseys" ONLY if there had been a note with "Dear Occupant, I've kidnapped your little girl because you live in a big house and probably have lots of money" and not otherwise. It seems to me that the precipitating event idea has been pretty thoroughly examined without producing anything useful.

Many predators/sociopaths that are eventually arrested have no criminal record or only a very minor one. This doesn't mean that they aren't criminals. Many other types of criminals also have no criminal record for various reasons. Serial killers are especially notorious for having no interaction with law enforcement prior to being arrested, tried, and sentenced to death over and over or to hundreds of years in prison. They are manipulators, working people as if they were machines. They study the rest of us to see how we behave, then take advantage of that knowledge.

Sociopaths often do not get caught for crimes they commit. They can often fake being nice people, having studied "nice people." On the surface, they can appear normal. Look at Scott Peterson, for example. If he was a little smarter, he may have gotten away with two murders. Just think about where that case would be if Amber had never called the Modesto police and/or if the bodies hadn't washed up on the shore of the Bay.

That's one possible way to look at this.


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BraveHeart
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11-28-04, 02:06 AM (EST)
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40. "RE: Dave's post"
In response to message #39
 
   LAST EDITED ON 11-28-04 AT 02:07 AM (EST)
 
"Sociopaths often do not get caught for crimes they commit. They can often fake being nice people, having studied "nice people." On the surface, they can appear normal. Look at..."

Jeffrey Dalmer, "...for example."

And Ted Bundy, Wayne Gacy...These people got caught eventually, but only after many crimes and victims, and in some cases they operated right under the police dept.'s "nose".

What about Jack the Ripper, the Zodiac, DB Cooper, the Black Delilah murderer, the person who killed Susannah Chase? O.J? Sometimes they do get away with their crimes, at least they aren't recognized, convicted, served with justice...in the here and now.

And if Scott Peterson had not been such a prolific liar, if he had kept his mouth shut, he might not have been convicted, despite the currents, the bodies, the multiple affairs and Amber Frye, particularly in California.

Sometimes these predators tip their hand to someone around them but often, I think, when someone gets that close to them it's too late.
I don't think most people know what to look for, behavior-wise, in these people and that is why, when they are exposed the neighbors always say "oh gosh, I don't believe this, he was such a nice regular guy. I mean, he was a little bit eccentric, stayed off to himself mostly, didn't have many people over, but he always said 'hello' when we passed each other."

How about the guy that kidnapped women and flew them to Alaska where he hunted them down with a rifle. His wife had no idea she was married to a serial killer.


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DonBradley
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11-28-04, 10:46 AM (EST)
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41. "RE: DB --- Post #33"
In response to message #39
 
   >It seems to me that the precipitating event idea has been pretty
>thoroughly examined without producing anything useful.


Much of crime solving seems to be a mix of 'focusing on the evidence' and 'focusing on the probabilities'. A recent crime-tv show involved a wealthy California businessman who had been killed: the cops focused on the fingerprints and firearms evidence but they also focused on the probabilities: the son who would inherit and whose post crime behavior seemed a bit odd in several minor ways.

Since we don't have much in the way of forensic evidence available to us, I was concerned with the traditional avenues involving 'motive'. One possible consideration has always been a business related motivation, although one might think John Ramsey, not his daughter, would be the target if it were business related. The problem is that John Ramsey was no Exxon executive, he does not have a lengthy list of enemies. So you are indeed correct about the 'no useful results' when we focus on a precipitating event from the 'usual sources' such as 'people who think you owe them money'. I was trying to extend the "precipitating event" concept to include such fanciful and unknowable notions as a heavy door being slammed in his face. This would truly be some sort of nutcase scenario and I don't really think the intruder is a nutcase. Indeed, whether he be a sociopath or not, if he kills because of a slammed door, he probably didn't start that behavior with the Ramseys but has lived that way for years of interaction with others.

So I guess this really boils down to "if the usual suspects have proven to be an unproductive line of inquiry, should we re-assess whether this is indeed an attack on the parents?" Maybe Lou Smit is right: this really is a pedophile and not some normal person who wanted to hurt the parents.


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Dave
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11-28-04, 02:45 PM (EST)
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42. "RE: DB --- Post #33"
In response to message #41
 
   Hi Don,

"Much of crime solving seems to be a mix of 'focusing on the evidence' and 'focusing on the probabilities'."

If one wants to have a long and good track record overall, this is the way to go, especially with limited resources. It's the maximization of minimal resources to a large problem that makes this a good approach.

"I was trying to extend the 'precipitating event' concept to include such fanciful and unknowable notions as a heavy door being slammed in his face."

As a general strategy, this works contrary to the maximization of minimal resources. As an individual effort, there shouldn't be any problem with this, and it certainly should be a part of any brainstorming session; but I personally don't want to see my tax dollars going towards this approach as a general rule. The question would then arise, "What crimes should go unsolved so that we can pursue this one more ineffectively?"


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DonBradley
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11-28-04, 05:03 PM (EST)
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43. "RE: DB --- Post #33"
In response to message #42
 
   I think the BPD wasted alot of time and resources already. We might as well waste some more, but what I was trying to clarify was the point that if we are so unable to come up with someone who disliked the Ramseys does that mean that I should abandon my 'attack on the parents' theory and accept that the crime really was indeed a pedophile's attack on JonBenet and that the name 'Ramsey' meant only about as much to him as 'occupant'.


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BraveHeart
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11-29-04, 00:15 AM (EST)
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44. "RE: two incidents"
In response to message #43
 
   Incident one:
John and a contractor got crossways in Charlevoix over some work John felt was unfinished and the contactor felt was. Apparently, it went to small claims court there and John's written response provides a certain graphologist with letters that he compares with those of the RN, letters that I also think look similar. This is also the place where some unidentified creep made a threat against John vaguely concerning some money he owed the creep and it is also the place where a mysterious stranger entered the Ramsey home (did he have a key?)and slept in JonBenet's bed. Were these one and the same person?

Incident two:
John fired a former friend from AG, after that company was acquired by a larger corporation, supposedly under pressure from the parent company to trim costs. I personally think the $118,000 in the RN refers to this incident. Jeff Merrick was incensed, and in fact, he threatened John. But, he must have realized that, if he in fact did anything, it would have been easy to trace his envolvement. A lot of people say things they regret in the heat of the moment. But they don't act on those feelings.

It is not difficult to imagine others who would be incensed even though they were not personally wronged. I offer as an example the women who cheered when the Peterson verdict was announced. Thousands of women felt vindicated, having taken the murder of Laci as an attack on womanhood in general by a worthless chauvinist two timing pig. A lot of women can identify with that view even though they have never been murdered. They may have known someone who was, or may have been married to an abusive husband. If the verdict had been otherwise there might have been one of those WITH ISSUES who would have decided to enforce justice herself.


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DonBradley
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12-04-04, 06:29 AM (EST)
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45. "RE: Disliked as sufficient motivation?"
In response to message #0
 
   >From time to time various posters have brought up the topic
>of motivation on the part of the intruder. Its difficult
>since we don't know if it is motive to rape, motive to
>murder, motive to inflict pain and suffering on the actual
>victim or motive to inflict pain and suffering on the parents.
I reallize that we can not seem to agree on 'pedophile's dream so a pedophile killed her' versus 'inflicting endless agony on the parents' or the many intermediate goals the intruder might have had.
Its just that I wonder what is the essence of the crime and what are 'mere trappings' that are either meant to mislead us or simply ancilliary goals of the intruder.

Clearly a lengthy note indicates some sort of interest in the parents and in the parents suffering. "Your company" or whatever surely indicates the intruder knew that John Ramsey was not a cog in the wheel somewhere. If that red-inked article is relevant then it clearly indicates a focus on the parents. Yet we obviously have a crime that involves the daughter. How much, if any, of that is equivalent to a stage magician's misdirection?

>So... how about a thread on whether being disliked to some
>degree for some reason makes the family a target or should
>we be looking in a different direction for a motive?
I somehow just don't think that the type of person who would do such a thing would be as much of a "Mr.SlowBurn" as we generally think.
Cheated in a business transaction? Cheated in some equity deal with one of the start-up companies? Cheated out of a promotion or bonus?
Rather than looking for all these ancient motives, maybe we really should be looking more intensely at recent stuff.


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one_eyed_Jack
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12-18-04, 05:59 PM (EST)
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46. "RE: Disliked as sufficient motivation?"
In response to message #45
 
   Focusing on the movie themes in the note, it looks like the writer had been watching extortion type movies with an underlying theme of resentment. The Dirty Harry movie seems to be the one most paraphrased from, so perhaps the offender identifies with the extortionist from Dirty Harry...Scorpio. Scorpio is one of the most despicable, whiny, and inadequate movie villains I have ever watched. I've seen the movie several times, and I still feel like wringing his scrawny neck. It's hard to imagine anyone so inadequate as to look up to this character, yet, it seems the note writer did. Maybe the resentment we think we see in the crime is more a reflection of how the offender feels all the time rather than how he feels toward the Ramsey family specifically because of an interpersonal precipitating event. The note could have read, 'Dear Occupant,' but "Mr. Ramsey" would suffice.

I'm not sure what exactly the offender was looking to gain from the crime. If it was money, then it seems like one or more young offenders who thought the amount was quite a lot of money and thought a kidnapping would be much easier than it really is. The sexual assault could have been committed because the opportunity presented itself to an inexperienced and youthful offender. The boldness could indicate youth. The murder could have been done to silence JonBenét so she could never identify her attacker. The whole movie mentality of the note reminds me of the way a young person would think.

JonBenét fought, and she probably screamed. Is this something the offender expected? She had to be stun-gunned twice. She had scratch marks on her calf, petechia near her shoulder, her hair was wildly messed up, and the sleeves of her shirt look dirty. There was a nightshirt in her bed with the sleeves right side out but the neck area was inside out. Like the shirt was pulled over her head and then pulled off. Another nightgown was beside her body wrapped with the blanket taken from her bed. It kind of seems like JonBenét may not have been very cooperative right from the start and that her attacker was trying to take her out of the house. Neither John nor Patsy have said anything about leaving a nightshirt in her bed.

Perhaps she was killed and hid away in the cellar room because of panic rather than deliberation. Sometimes, I wonder if there were two perps and one was waiting with JonBenét in the basement for the other one to go get the van that was seen earlier that day when JonBenét got the duct tape off her mouth and started screaming. Perhaps he took the opportunity while waiting to molest her. Could be. Maybe she wasn't taken out by a more direct route because the offender assumed the house was alarmed except for that broken basement window. Just some thoughts.


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DonBradley
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12-18-04, 07:19 PM (EST)
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47. "SubSet Analysis or Fragmenting the Crime"
In response to message #46
 
   If we engage in the much maligned subset analysis it is possible to come up with a list of rational actions by two perpetrators.

One a kidnapper who was quite youthful and one a supposed kidnapper to whom either an opportunity presented itself or he had such real intentions anyway but awaited that "other dude left to get the van" opportunity.

I've always been opposed to the notion of a group effort on this crime because I feel its just not something one can recruit people for. I've always thought the note sounded too middle aged for young kids.

I would agree that the weak, whiney character in the Dirty Harry movie was too weak and too whiney.

I still see this as far too targeted a crime to be just two kids from the area. Lots of other homes, no need to write notes if all they wanted were thrills of robbery and one of them wanted perverse thrills too.


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Maikai
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12-19-04, 08:23 AM (EST)
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48. "Two makes sense to me....."
In response to message #47
 
   Not unlike the killers in the Clutter murders, alone neither may have done the crime, but together they became a third person. They would have reinforced each other.

If two, one could have been duped--happens all the time. One's a leader, the other a follower. The tone of the note indicates two voices. The first 2/3's is relatively polite....the ending either a change in mood, or someone else dictating. If a pre-written note was brought in, I think the bulk of it was the first 2/3's and the last part ad-libbed.


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one_eyed_Jack
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12-19-04, 12:35 PM (EST)
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49. "RE: Two makes sense to me....."
In response to message #48
 
   Maikai,
That is how the note has come across to me, also. It sounds scripted at first and ad-libbed later on like the perp was getting out his frustrations. I was surprised to learn how much crime there was within a few block radius of the Ramsey home on 48 hours last night.


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Maikai
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12-19-04, 09:11 PM (EST)
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50. "One-eyed....."
In response to message #49
 
   Even the crossoffs indicate to me that someone was copying a prewritten note, and lost their place a few times. I think it could have been typed out first---the note is much shorter if typed out. IMO, the last paragraph indicates the frame of mind of the perp while in the house.

The darkside of Boulder didn't surprise me, since I'm familiar with Boulder....I posted numerous articles under the "My theory" section of what was going on in Boulder and the Ramsey neighborhood. Boulder is a mecca for all kinds of people, and it's become a rich vs poor kind of place....and there is a certain subculture that resents the "fatcats" that moved in. What is surprising is why Steve Thomas and the BPD couldn't figure it out. Someone once told me that what he heard, and what started the feud was Eller's was counting on being the hero to JR, and when that didn't happen, the lines were drawn earlyon. You had the media portraying the BPD as a bunch of dufuses...and the Ramseys lawyering up.


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DonBradley
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12-20-04, 07:14 AM (EST)
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51. "THREAD CLOSED"
In response to message #0
 
   THREAD CLOSED DUE TO HAVING REACHED FIFTY POSTS.

THREAD CLOSED

THEAD CLOSED.

IF ANYONE WANTS TO CONTINUE THE DISCUSSION ON
THE TOPIC OF BEING 'DISLIKED' AS MAKING THE
RAMSEY FAMILY A TARGET, THEY CAN START A
CONTINUATION THREAD.

THIS THREAD IS CLOSED.


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