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Miztiki
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09-06-06, 00:44 AM (EST)
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"Head injuries long after death?"
 
   Is it medically possible that JonBenet's head injury happened long after she died?

The thought occurred to me as I was reading the autopsy report. I couldn't understand why someone would strangle her and then bash her head in after she was dead.

The autopsy report says, "This grossly appears to be fresh hemorrhage with no evidence of organization."

The term "fresh" caught my eye and made me wonder. I tried to put myself into John's shoes. From his description of finding her, he was pretty much hysterical, not thinking clearly, and just rushed her upstairs. He and Linda Arndt described how he carried her, and that her head was turned to the right. The injury was on the right side as well.

So I wondered if maybe he didn't accidently bump her head on something on his way through the basement or up the stairs. I have a feeling that he wouldn't have even noticed if his hair was on fire at the time.

I spent alot of time learning what the different terms in the autopsy report meant (specifically regarding her head injury) and I haven't learned anything that would medically rule the possibility out. I don't know what changes take place in a child's skull strength after death (if it weakens) or how much force would be necessary to cause such an extensive fracture.

So would it be medically possible for something like that to have happened?

And then if it is medically possible, I guess someone would need to know how tall John is. He held her by the waist, facing him, with her head above his according to descriptions. Someone would need to know what obstacles would be at that height on the route from the cellar to the upstairs. In some pictures I saw ductwork along the ceiling and whatnot. Maybe there is something up there that could produce a similar type injury? (I'm thinking about the depressed portion of her skull.) Maybe an electrical plug-in thingy or something on the top part of a door frame? I suppose it's also possible that he started out carrying her a different way, so maybe a corner or something along the way was sticking out?

I realize that this scenario is unlikely but I think it's worth considering so it can be ruled out or not. It's one that I haven't seen mentioned and considering how hysterical John apparently was, he may not have noticed if he bumped her head on something in his rush to get her upstairs. It seems plausible anyway.

Thanks in advance for your comments, and hello from a new member. :-)

Miz


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  Subject     Author     Message Date     ID  
  RE: Head injuries long after death? Ashley 09-06-06 1
     RE: Head injuries long after death? Margoo 09-06-06 2
         RE: Head injuries long after death? Margoo 09-06-06 3
             RE: Head injuries long after death? Miztiki 09-06-06 4
             RE: Force required to displace bone Margoo 09-06-06 5
                 RE: Force required to displace bone Miztiki 09-06-06 6
                     RE: Force required to displace bone Margoo 09-07-06 7
                         RE: Force required to displace bone one_eyed_Jack 09-07-06 8
                             RE: Not pertinent but interesting Evening2 09-07-06 9
  RE: Head injuries long after death? Rainsong 09-08-06 10
  Repost: On ST's Envisionment Dave 09-21-06 11
     RE: Repost: On ST's Envisionment Rainsong 09-27-06 12
         RE: Repost: On ST's Envisionment Dave 09-27-06 13
             RE: Repost: On ST's Envisionment Rainsong 09-28-06 14
                 RE: Repost: On ST's Envisionment Dave 09-28-06 15
                     RE: Repost: On ST's Envisionment one_eyed_Jack 09-30-06 16
                         RE: Repost: On ST's Envisionment Margoo 09-30-06 17
                             RE: Repost: On ST's Envisionment Dave 10-01-06 18
                                 RE: Repost: On ST's Envisionment mBm 10-01-06 19
                                 RE: Repost: On ST's Envisionment Margoo 10-02-06 20
                                     RE: Repost: On ST's Envisionment Dave 10-02-06 21
                                         RE: Repost: On ST's Envisionment Margoo 10-03-06 22
                                             RE: Repost: On ST's Envisionment Dave 10-03-06 23
                                             RE: weapon BraveHeart 10-20-06 24
                                             RE: weapon Dave 10-22-06 25
                                             RE: weapon BraveHeart 11-10-06 26
                                             RE: weapon Margoo 11-10-06 27

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Ashley
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09-06-06, 10:30 AM (EST)
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1. "RE: Head injuries long after death?"
In response to message #0
 
   I think it is unlikley. The force of the blow to her head was hard enough to knock out a 300 lb man.


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Margoo
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09-06-06, 02:27 PM (EST)
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2. "RE: Head injuries long after death?"
In response to message #1
 
   I spent alot of time learning what the different terms in the autopsy report meant (specifically regarding her head injury) and I haven't learned anything that would medically rule the possibility out.

I think the bleeding under the scalp and in the brain is a very clear indication that the head blow occurred while the heart was still pumping.


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Margoo
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09-06-06, 02:35 PM (EST)
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3. "RE: Head injuries long after death?"
In response to message #2
 
   I guess someone would need to know how tall John is.


23 LOU SMIT: And you're how tall?
24 JOHN RAMSEY: Five ten, nine and a half.


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Miztiki
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09-06-06, 03:22 PM (EST)
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4. "RE: Head injuries long after death?"
In response to message #3
 
   "I think the bleeding under the scalp and in the brain is a very clear indication that the head blow occurred while the heart was still pumping."

Not really. People always have blood in their head, whether dead or alive. From what I have been able to gather, strangling someone cuts off the outward flow of blood (veins) faster than inward flow of blood (arteries). That's why strangling results in petechial hemorrhaging. The pressure builds up and bursts the capillaries and whatnot.

So I think a strangled person should actually have a bit more blood than normal in their head.

Whether there is more blood than usual or not doesn't really matter though. There's always blood in a person's head.

JonBenet's head was turned to the side, to the right. She had been dead for some time (she was stiff). Any blood would gravitate downwards, resulting in livor mortis. So any blood in her head would have pooled downwards on the right side of her head.

If the strong blow to her head happened long after her death then it would have ruptured the blood vessels, causing the blood to leak out. That's exactly what "hemorrhage" means. It's blood escaping from the vessels. You'll notice in the autopsy report that there is no sign of organization (like clotting) and no sign of inflammation (like swelling), so she had to have been dead when the blow to her head occurred.

Blood doesn't just disappear from a person's head just because they died. It's still there. If you were to apply blunt force to such a head then it would rupture the blood vessels, allowing any blood within them to leak out.

There is no indication from the autopsy report descriptions that her heart was still pumping. Otherwise there would be some signs of organization or inflammation. Also, there would be an awful lot more blood!

So far I haven't read anything that would medically refute the possibility of her head injury happening long after she died. I'm hoping someone can come up with solid medical data to rule out this scenario. If not then I think it's something that should be considered as a possibility.


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Margoo
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09-06-06, 05:45 PM (EST)
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5. "RE: Force required to displace bone"
In response to message #3
 
   Maybe there is something up there that could produce a similar type injury? (I'm thinking about the depressed portion of her skull.) Maybe an electrical plug-in thingy or something on the top part of a door frame?

This injury was not a bump on the head. ENOUGH FORCE was applied to knock out a section of her skull. It was not a slight fracture, but a chunk of bone was displaced. A very severe injury.

She was not dropped on her head from a great height (no other physical injuries were found on her to coincide with that).

She did not fall against a bathtub or counter.

Her head was not slammed into the concrete.

She was hit HARD with something.


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Miztiki
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09-06-06, 06:28 PM (EST)
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6. "RE: Force required to displace bone"
In response to message #5
 
   I've seen her skull. I am aware of the extent of her injuries.

Do you know how much force is necessary to cause the injuries she sustained to her head?

I've researched that question and for obvious reasons, experiments have not been carried out on living humans.

I have learned that such extensive injuries can happen with relatively little force, as well as great force.

I also learned that a child's skull is not fully formed, so more prone to fracture than an adult skull.

I do not know if 12 some hours of death would compromise the strength of a skull.

I do know, from the descriptions, that John rushed her upstairs. I also know that she was quite stiff.

So, if he was running through the basement then her head may have whacked something (HARD) along the way. Due to her stiffness, particularly in her neck, there would have been no "give", thus increasing the force. If he was running then that very well could have been sufficient force to cause her head injuries.

I'm not saying that is what happened. What I'm saying is that it's a plausible scenario if you sit and think about it, and I would like to know if the information in the autopsy report can MEDICALLY rule such a scenario in or out.

Here is one link I saved during my research:

http://www.dundee.ac.uk/forensicmedicine/notes/heading.pdf


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Margoo
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09-07-06, 11:43 AM (EST)
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7. "RE: Force required to displace bone"
In response to message #6
 
   LAST EDITED ON 09-07-06 AT 11:44 AM (EST)
 
Do you know how much force is necessary to cause the injuries she sustained to her head?

Yes, this discussion has taken place a number of times over the years.

edited to add - the link you have provided has been referenced a number of times in those discussions.

May I refer you to

http://www.bartleby.com/107/18.html


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one_eyed_Jack
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09-07-06, 12:36 PM (EST)
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8. "RE: Force required to displace bone"
In response to message #7
 
   How can an injury hours after death show "fresh hemorrhage with no evidence of organization"? How could death after a few hours cause the skull to be so fragile that banging it against something while running causes an 8 inch fracture and displaced bone? Do minerals start leaching out of bone real fast after death or something?


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Evening2
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09-07-06, 01:35 PM (EST)
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9. "RE: Not pertinent but interesting"
In response to message #8
 
  
RIGOR MORTIS AND THE INFLUENCE OF CALCIUM AND MAGNESIUM SALTS UPON ITS DEVELOPMENT

http://www.jem.org/cgi/content/abstract/10/1/45


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Rainsong
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09-08-06, 07:35 AM (EST)
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10. "RE: Head injuries long after death?"
In response to message #0
 
   >Is it medically possible that JonBenet's head injury
>happened long after she died?
>
>The thought occurred to me as I was reading the autopsy
>report. I couldn't understand why someone would strangle her
>and then bash her head in after she was dead.
>
>The autopsy report says, "This grossly appears to be fresh
>hemorrhage with no evidence of organization."
>
>The term "fresh" caught my eye and made me wonder. I tried
>to put myself into John's shoes. From his description of
>finding her, he was pretty much hysterical, not thinking
>clearly, and just rushed her upstairs. He and Linda Arndt
>described how he carried her, and that her head was turned
>to the right. The injury was on the right side as well.
>
>So I wondered if maybe he didn't accidently bump her head on
>something on his way through the basement or up the stairs.
>I have a feeling that he wouldn't have even noticed if his
>hair was on fire at the time.
>
>I spent alot of time learning what the different terms in
>the autopsy report meant (specifically regarding her head
>injury) and I haven't learned anything that would medically
>rule the possibility out. I don't know what changes take
>place in a child's skull strength after death (if it
>weakens) or how much force would be necessary to cause such
>an extensive fracture.
>
>So would it be medically possible for something like that to
>have happened?
>
>And then if it is medically possible, I guess someone would
>need to know how tall John is. He held her by the waist,
>facing him, with her head above his according to
>descriptions. Someone would need to know what obstacles
>would be at that height on the route from the cellar to the
>upstairs. In some pictures I saw ductwork along the ceiling
>and whatnot. Maybe there is something up there that could
>produce a similar type injury? (I'm thinking about the
>depressed portion of her skull.) Maybe an electrical plug-in
>thingy or something on the top part of a door frame? I
>suppose it's also possible that he started out carrying her
>a different way, so maybe a corner or something along the
>way was sticking out?
>
>I realize that this scenario is unlikely but I think it's
>worth considering so it can be ruled out or not. It's one
>that I haven't seen mentioned and considering how hysterical
>John apparently was, he may not have noticed if he bumped
>her head on something in his rush to get her upstairs. It
>seems plausible anyway.
>
>Thanks in advance for your comments, and hello from a new
>member. :-)
>
>Miz

Dead people do not bleed, nor do they bruise in the typical manner of living persons. There were signs of fresh bleeding and bruising in the brain.

Pathologists learn to determine whether damage to a body is antemortem,perimortem or postmortem. Bones broken prior to death differ in color than bones broken after death, and the manner in which they break is also different.

Rainsong


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Dave
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09-21-06, 07:05 PM (EST)
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11. "Repost: On ST's Envisionment"
In response to message #0
 
   I'm not sure if my note from 2001 is available or not elsewhere on these forums, but it speaks directly to posts by Miztiki (below comments):


"Do you know how much force is necessary to cause the injuries she sustained to her head?"

Yes I do (see below) and so do others who have read the note below or have done their own calculations.


"I have learned that such extensive injuries can happen with relatively little force, as well as great force."

Not true. The punched-out injury requires a tremendous impulse.


"I also learned that a child's skull is not fully formed, so more prone to fracture than an adult skull."

Not true. Whether one is "more prone" than the other depends upon the specific type of fracture, how it happens, and so on. No such general claim can be made.


"I do not know if 12 some hours of death would compromise the strength of a skull."

Extremely unlikely.


"So, if he was running through the basement then her head may have whacked something (HARD) along the way. Due to her stiffness, particularly in her neck, there would have been no "give", thus increasing the force. If he was running then that very well could have been sufficient force to cause her head injuries."

Not true (see below).


"I'm not saying that is what happened. What I'm saying is that it's a plausible scenario if you sit and think about it..."

No it isn't if you know anything at all about the physics involved (see below).

------------------------------------------


The JonBenét Ramsey Case:

On the Physical Impossibility
of Detective Steve Thomas' Envisionment

08 July 2001, 10 July 2001

Introduction

Herein it is shown that the scenario envisioned by former Detective Steve Thomas of the Boulder Police Department, regarding the murder of JonBenét Ramsey in late 1996, is in all likelihood physically impossible. After a very brief summary of Thomas' envisioned scenario, calculations of the required impact are presented which show that the injury to JonBenét's skull require far more force than can be developed by a fall, an enhanced fall such as by being shoved, slammed, or similar physical action by Patsy Ramsey.


Background

Former Detective Steve Thomas' envisioned scenario <1> is that Patsy Ramsey, JonBenét's mother, "slammed" JonBenét into a hard object such as the edge of a bathtub, causing JonBenét's severe skull injury. Subsequently, Patsy covered up this incident by staging a kidnapping and murder by an unknown intruder in order to distract attention from her own involvement in her daughter's death.

According to the coroner's autopsy report <2>, there was a displaced skull fragment measuring approximately 1.75 inches by 0.5 inches (4.4 cm x 1.3 cm). The area of this fragment is, therefore, slightly less than one square inch (5.6 cm2 or 5.6x10-4 m2).

According to studies on the strength of bone <3>, the ultimate strength of human bone is on the order of 100 MPa (mega-Pascal, or millions of Newtons per square meter).


Simple Fall

In order to introduce some of the relevant physics, let us first consider the fall of a 6.5 year-old female. Her weight, if average, would be on the order of 46 pounds (21 Kg) <4>. Her expected height is 45.5 inches, (3' 9.5" or 1.16 m). If we consider that her center of gravity is approximately half her height, then her center of gravity is 23 inches (0.58 m) above the ground. Her potential energy is, given Earth's gravitational field and switching to metric units exclusively, m*g*h or (21 Kg) * (9.8 m/sec2) * (0.58 m) = 119 J. If she were to fall completely to the ground (center of gravity at 0.0 m, not at bathtub height) from an initial standing position, the kinetic energy developed would be this same number, namely 119 J. Her velocity at impact with the ground can be calculated from K.E. = 0.5 * m * v2. This gives about 3.4 m/sec for her velocity at impact with the ground.

A typical impulse time used for studying skull fractures is on the order of 10 milliseconds (10 msec) <5>, and about 2 msec for a very hard surface <6>. During a time period of 2 msec, a velocity of 3.4 m/sec going uniformly to zero requires a deceleration of 1700 m/sec2. If a force of mass * acceleration (21 Kg * 1700 m/sec2) is judiciously applied to the falling child discussed above, she could be stopped in 2 msec. This force is approximately 36,000 Newtons. If we ludicrously and carelessly applied 100% of this force to an area equivalent to the area of the displaced skull fragment reported by Dr. Meyer in his coroner's autopsy report, we have 36,000 Newtons / 5.6x10-4 m2 = 64 MPa. This is somewhat below the 100 MPa required for the ultimate strength of bone. But what does the assumption of 100% of the force to the area of the displaced fragment imply? It implies that the child's body was completely halted by that impulse applied to the small area of the skull, further implying that the child's body is completely rigid. This just simply is not true.

More reasonable would be to assume that the child's head was completely stopped by the impact to the skull, but that her torso, arms, and legs were stopped by impact with other surfaces. A young child's head is approximately 25% or one-fourth of his/her body weight, so we can crudely adjust the result of 64 MPa above by simply dividing 64 MPa by the mass ratio of four (or multiplying by 0.25). This results in 16 MPa, which is far below the force required to cause a punching out of a skull fragment of the size reported. So we would not expect an average child to have a skull fragment of approximately one square inch in area punched out by a fall of one meter to a hard surface with their head striking a part of the surface 1.75 inches by 0.5 inches. Indeed, experience shows us that one meter is about the minimum-distance fall onto a hard surface for which a person can sustain any kind of skull fracture at all <7>, but this is a completely different situation than having a small section of the skull completely punched out.


Enhanced Fall

Let us now consider an enhanced fall. Let us first consider merely doubling the stress of 16 MPa above to 32 MPa and try to determine what changes are required to the initial problem of a simple fall. The first thing to note is that if we are talking about motion of the child's entire body, then we can simply double the deceleration above so that we would achieve a stress of 32 MPa for her head. The resulting deceleration is therefore 3400 m/sec2 (obtained by doubling 1700 m/sec2). Again using 2 msec as the time over which this uniform deceleration occurred <8>, we have an initial velocity of 6.8 m/sec. The kinetic energy just prior to impact would, in this second case, be (0.5) * (21 Kg) * (6.8 m/sec)2 or about 480 J. Doubling the impact velocity results in an increase in kinetic energy of roughly 360 J (quadrupling the total energy). This extra energy is the additional energy beyond that of a simple fall that would be required to be supplied by the person pushing or throwing a child into something and resulting in a stress of 32 MPa.

How much energy is this extra amount? It is the energy used to raise a 74 Kg object (162 pounds) one-half meter (slightly more than eighteen inches). If Patsy Ramsey can benchpress over 160 pounds, (my athletically fit wife can not do this) then she could possibly have pushed JonBenét at the doubled velocity into a hard surface, but this action would result in an impulse which is still far too small (to repeat, only 32 MPa). We need to, at the very least, double the force again, and this would quadruple the energy again. This second doubling results in an increase in kinetic energy of roughly 1800 J from where we initially started (119 J). 1800 J is the energy used to raise a 367 Kg object (808 pounds) one-half meter. We're still not there yet. We're at 64 MPa, and we need 100 MPa. Suffice it to say that it's physically impossible that JonBenét's displaced skull fragment was caused by Patsy throwing her whole body against something or by shoving her whole body hard enough.

Falls and enhanced falls such as by shoving by Patsy Ramsey are therefore excluded on physical grounds.


Slamming

Now if we assume that Patsy "slammed" JonBenét against something, we have to consider that she probably didn't slam her whole body against the hard surface, probably only her head. Her head is a fraction of 21 Kg, perhaps 4 or 5 Kg. In order to obtain a stress of 100 MPa over an area of the displaced skull fragment, we need a force of 56,000 Newtons. This means that the deceleration needs to be (for 4.5 Kg) 12,400 m/sec2. A uniform deceleration of 12,400 m/sec2 over a period of 2 msec implies that the initial velocity is about 25 m/sec (56 mph). For this to be possible, Patsy would have had to accelerate JonBenét's head to about 25 m/sec in approximately one meter, the maximum distance over which Patsy could have reasonably be expected to have applied the acceleration. (Even this would require acceleration and movement of a large portion of the rest of the body, but we'll neglect that for now.) This acceleration is 312 m/sec2, which for a 4.5 Kg mass implies a force of about 1400 Newtons (317 pounds!).

Patsy, or anyone else for that matter, would have had to push JonBenét's head with 317 pounds of force (over a distance of about three feet) to cause the reported skull fragment displacement, and this act would have had to have been performed with 100% efficiency, meaning that the entire impulse would have had to have been applied directly towards completely punching out that particular fragment of skull. Although it's conceivable that someone very strong, capable of benchpressing hundreds of pounds, could get within range of this, it's highly unlikely that Patsy Ramsey could have done this.


Weapons

More likely a weapon of some sort was used. People can swing golf clubs at speeds over 100 mph and baseball bats at speeds in excess of 75 mph <9>, respectively (45 m/sec and 34 m/sec). A uniform deceleration from 45 m/sec (100 mph) to zero in 2 msec is 22,500 m/sec2. Developing a stress of 100 MPa over the area of the skull fragment requires a mass of only about 2.5 Kg (about 5.5 pounds). This is heavier than a baseball bat or a golf club, but it's the correct order of magnitude for those objects. It is also the case that using a weapon allows for the attacker to direct a deadly impulse to a specific area, a serious problem especially for a falling or a shoving/falling scenario.

This latter calculation demonstrates that even if a weapon was used, it was used with great force. Whoever wielded this weapon was probably physically quite strong. The weapon was also probably somewhat long to achieve a very high speed, not as short as a flashlight, for example. It also had to be relatively hard to achieve a very short deceleration (deformation) time.


Future Work

Finite element codes are available which could be used to more accurately simulate an injury to the skull. Here we have merely shown with simple analytical calculations that any pushing, shoving, or "slamming" actions by Patsy cannot come even remotely close to generating the kind of force necessary to have caused the JonBenét's skull injury. More accurate simulations could potentially rule out other scenarios.

More accurate analytical calculations could be done, especially those taking into account suture lines and so forth to determine exactly what kind of weapon is reasonable. That is to say that a more careful consideration of the skull fragment may result in a better understanding of what actually occurred. It seems highly unlikely, however, that the primary conclusion that Patsy could not have possibly done this in the manner envisioned by Steve Thomas would be changed in the slightest.


Conclusion

Although it is possible that someone very, very strong could have killed JonBenét Ramsey in the fashion described by former Detective Steve Thomas, the blow inflicted on JonBenét was almost certainly an extremely violent blow to the head using a weapon. The scenario envisioned by former Detective Steve Thomas, specifically involving Patsy Ramsey slamming JonBenét against something, is hereby shown to be physically impossible.


References and Notes (Links may no longer be valid - Sept 2006)

<1> Steve Thomas. JonBenét: Inside the Ramsey Murder Investigation. St. Martin's Press, 2000, pages 286-289 (hardcover).

<2> John E. Meyer. Autopsy Report: JonBenét Ramsey. 27 December 1996.
http://www.courttv.com/casefiles/jonbenet/autopsy.html

<3> D. T. Reilly and A. H. Burstein. The classical and ultimate properties of compact bone tissue. Journal of Biomechanics, Volume 8, 1995, page 393. As cited in: Stephen C. Cowin. Bone Mechanics. CRC Press, 1989, page 115.

<4> The World Almanac and Book of Facts: 1995. World Almanac, 1995, page 972.

<5> B. V. Mehta, R. Mulabagula, and J. V. Patel. Finite element analysis of the human skull considering the brain and bone material properties. In J. Middleton, M.L. Jones, and G.N. Pande (editors), Computer Methods in Biomechanics and Biomedical Engineering, Gordon and Breach Publishers, 1996, pages 217-228.
http://www.ent.ohiou.edu/~mehta/skulluk.html

<6> John Plunkett. Shaken Baby Syndrome and Other Mysteries. Submitted to American Journal of Forensic Medicine and Pathology, 1998.
http://www.portia.org/chapter8/mystery.html

<7> D. W. Sadler. Head Injuries. University of Dundee, 1999.
http://www.dundee.ac.uk/forensicmedicine/llb/heading.htm

<8> Here we assume a constant deceleration time rather than a constant deformation distance, consistent with the assumption that higher velocities would result in more deformation and roughly the same deformation time.

<9> Knowledge Daily, 08 July 2001.
http://www.knowledgedaily.com/index.asp?st=mcgwire

<10> The actual energy required to displace the skull fragment at its maximum possible displacement prior to fracture, relying on thin-plate theory which isn't actually applicable here, is quite small, less than 10 J. The impulse required, however, is very large. Energy calculations alone won't reveal what is possible and what is not.

To prevent unsrupulous use of this document:
Copyright Š "Dave" on Jameson's Webbsleuths 2001. All rights reserved.


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Rainsong
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09-27-06, 12:11 PM (EST)
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12. "RE: Repost: On ST's Envisionment"
In response to message #11
 
   Thank you, Dave.

Interesting article in today's paper...

Two young men. both around 25, were in an altercation on the downtown mall. One man was charged with assault after slamming the victim's head into a concrete wall.

The victim "apparently was not seriously injured."

Rainsong


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Dave
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09-27-06, 06:57 PM (EST)
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13. "RE: Repost: On ST's Envisionment"
In response to message #12
 
   Hi Rainsong,

Thanks for your post.

That kind of headbanging thing can easily cause a fracture, but not easily completely punch out a piece of skull. I think that this distinction between injuries is what throws people off. A skull can comparatively easily fracture (crack) due to being deformed, so to speak, as it strikes a hard surface. But actually punching out a piece of bone at a given location requires a much larger impulse. Those who fail to make this distinction are prone to erroneously claiming that this injury may very well have been an accident. She didn't bump into something, nor was her head slammed against anything. She was struck with something.


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Rainsong
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09-28-06, 08:03 AM (EST)
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14. "RE: Repost: On ST's Envisionment"
In response to message #13
 
   Yeah, it's a bit like slapping a window with an open palm vs hitting it with, oh say, an elbow.

(Not sure my analogy is a good one, but it makes sense to me since the point of impact receives all the force and if the force is squished into a smaller area--have I totally lost it?)

Rainsong


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Dave
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09-28-06, 02:55 PM (EST)
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15. "RE: Repost: On ST's Envisionment"
In response to message #14
 
   Hi Rainsong,

That is another type of distinction.

When a skull first hits something very hard like a concrete floor, the first contact is a small area. But the rest of the skull keeps moving, so it flattens out somewhat (deforms). This causes a bending type of motion, and this can crack the skull because it doesn't bend very easily at all; it can crack along lines of weakness anywhere that there is bending.

When a skull is struck to punch out a piece of bone, the motion is more to shear the bone, that is to cause one part to move perpendicular to the surface while the neighboring piece remains in place. This is a kind of ripping action and is much more diffcult to do, even more so because it's being forced to shear at the edges of whatever is striking the skull, not just a line of weakness somewhere.

If you look at the link kindly provided some time ago by Margoo:

http://www.bartleby.com/107/18.html

you'll see a table that shows various materials, including bone. There are different columns: Tension, Compression, and Shear. These are different motions: pulling, squashing, and shearing (moving perpendicular such as pushing on one region while pulling on the other similar to ripping). Notice that the numbers vary in the columns. Also notice that the degree to which they vary depends on the material. With some materials, it doesn't so much matter what you do with them while with others, it does. Look at granite for example: You can squash it all you want, but if you pull on it or shear it, it comes apart much more easily.

In particular, note that there is something interesting about low and high density bone (I assume that "low" and "high" are density). As you go from "low" to "high," Tension and Compression ultimate strength (i.e. "failing") goes up while shear goes down. This is why I say that Miztiki was incorrect in claiming that a child's skull is more easily injured than an adult's. With regards to shear, that's not true, so it depends upon what injury you're talking about. I would expect it to be more difficult to punch out a piece of skull for the skull of a child than that of an adult based on this shear number, for example. This depends upon the age of course, but JonBenét was about six and a half, not an infant, so I would expect this to be true in her case.


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one_eyed_Jack
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09-30-06, 11:01 AM (EST)
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16. "RE: Repost: On ST's Envisionment"
In response to message #15
 
   When my son was five, he jumped up and hit his head on a nail. I took him to the ER, and the doctor said I had nothing to worry about because you would have to bang the nail repeatedly with a hammer to break through the skull.

It's surprising investigators ever believed this was an accident.


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Margoo
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09-30-06, 11:41 AM (EST)
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17. "RE: Repost: On ST's Envisionment"
In response to message #16
 
   Thanks for your great posts, Dave. It sure is helpful to have a member who is a physics expert. Do you think you could send this information to Beckner, Thomas, et al and cc Tom Bennett?


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Dave
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10-01-06, 04:17 PM (EST)
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18. "RE: Repost: On ST's Envisionment"
In response to message #17
 
   Hi Margoo,

One of the biggest problems with technical expertise is trying to explain results and conclusions to others, including other technical people who don't know enough about a particular area.

You must be kidding about Thomas, right? He's clueless about most things --- absolutely clueless. He's the poster child for the stereotype: "Dumb Cop." I will give him credit for being articulate, however. He is really, really good at clearly and distinctly saying very stupid things.


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mBm
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10-01-06, 08:14 PM (EST)
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19. "RE: Repost: On ST's Envisionment"
In response to message #18
 
   Dave, LOL !! (But that description might aptly apply to me, also!!)


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Margoo
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10-02-06, 04:26 AM (EST)
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20. "RE: Repost: On ST's Envisionment"
In response to message #18
 
   >Hi Margoo,
>
>One of the biggest problems with technical expertise is
>trying to explain results and conclusions to others,
>including other technical people who don't know enough about
>a particular area.
>
>You must be kidding about Thomas, right? He's clueless
>about most things --- absolutely clueless. He's the poster
>child for the stereotype: "Dumb Cop." I will give him
>credit for being articulate, however. He is really, really
>good at clearly and distinctly saying very stupid things.
>

No, Dave, I was dead serious, with tongue ever-so-slightly-in-cheek (not that notifying Steve Thomas of all the errors in his theory and WHY would get through to him).

This information, regarding the physics attached to the injuries (i.e. the impulse required to do the damage done) is something I've often wondered about in terms of whether or not LE bothered to look into it so that they, too, could decide what's reasonable to assume with regard to HOW the injuries might have occurred.

Thomas's ENTIRE theory is just plain stupid, but it could have been put where it belongs long, long ago (that would be the trash bin) if anyone "in authority" had taken the initiative to answer the question, applying the laws of physics, as to what is a reasonable scenario for that head injury (not to mention several other aspects of his dumber-than-dumb theory).

I've been left with the impression that Thomas is NOT the only one who is in the dark as to what type of physical event had to have occurred for the resulting displaced bone. I believe Beckner, Bennett, maybe even Mary Lacy - and POSSIBLY even Lou Smit- do not realize what physical events would NOT have been sufficient to cause that injury.


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Dave
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10-02-06, 10:26 PM (EST)
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21. "RE: Repost: On ST's Envisionment"
In response to message #20
 
   "I've been left with the impression that Thomas is NOT the only one who is in the dark as to what type of physical event had to have occurred for the resulting displaced bone."

Oh, that's a "fer-sure!" Take Henry Lee, for example. He didn't (still doesn't?) understand that either. As late as circa 2003 or 2004, unless what I saw was an old clip, he was still saying, "Could be accident. We don't know."

In saying this, I think he was giving it considerable credibility, not merely saying that it was theoretically possible but unlikely such as "Could be alien from galaxy far away. We don't know."


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Margoo
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10-03-06, 04:45 AM (EST)
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22. "RE: Repost: On ST's Envisionment"
In response to message #21
 
   I thought of including Dr. Lee in my post, but there's something about him that I find really puzzling. I either don't have a full understanding of his training or he's playing games in this case. Something not right.


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Dave
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10-03-06, 03:09 PM (EST)
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23. "RE: Repost: On ST's Envisionment"
In response to message #22
 
   "Something not right."

LOL!


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BraveHeart
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10-20-06, 02:15 PM (EST)
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24. "RE: weapon"
In response to message #23
 
   There are not a lot of photos around the internet showing skull injuries but based on the few I've seen in forensic books the skull "punch outs" produced by blows to the head with weapons remarkably look like the weapon. A victim hit with repeated blows from a hammer, for example, will have numerous round defects or punched out voids the same shape and size as the hammer stricking surface. The same holds true for shovels or bats.

In this case, the convex void in JonBenet's skull tells us exactly what the weapon was shaped like, as far as the part that struck her. It was convex. There is only one weapon I've seen that could make that shaped void, and that is a smooth stone club, the kind Indians used to use 125+ years ago, and which are frequently found around curio and Indian relic shops in colorado.

The flash light experiments that Dave did convinced me that the FL is a device that could make a defect in someones skull but I'm convinced that would cave in one side of the defect more than the other. It would not be as convex.

I am also certain that such a weapon would not arouse as much suspicion as someone carrying a loaded handgun, knife or club. It just wouldn't be expected.

Another dna thread posted on the other forum reminds us that the race of the Chase attacker was "Hispanic-American Indian". That makes me go, "hemmmmmm?"


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Dave
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10-22-06, 12:54 PM (EST)
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25. "RE: weapon"
In response to message #24
 
   What Braveheart is talking about here is that if you strike something with the small end of a Mag-Lite, for example, the impression that is left is expected to be slightly more rounded on one of the longer sides than on the other because of the curvature of the barrel of the flashlight compared to the flatness of the endpiece. If you imagine a cylinder at a 45 degree angle being pushed down into clay, you should expect to see one side of the impression in the clay to be curved and the other to be flat. However, photographs of skulls that are known to be impacted by hammers, for example, don't exhibit exact circular shapes, so I'm not convinced that this small difference would be noticeable. In other words, I don't think that the flashlight should be ruled out on the basis of the autopsy photographs of the skull.

Bone fractures at weaker points such as along suture lines of the skull, not solely along the edges of an impacting object. Also, the length of the punched out region of the skull is the same as the diameter of a three-cell Mag-Lite, something that would be expected from an impact of the small end of that type of flashlight (not the large end as concluded by W. Spitz and which he mentioned during a recently televised interview). I think that the flashlight is at least as likely as anything else that has been suggested.

Braveheart's suggestion of a personal weapon is interesting; people do use weapons of their own design more often than I would have thought. There is both a forensic advantage and disadvantage in doing that: The weapon may produce a unique wound that is not well understood, but if it is understood and the unique weapon is traced back to a single individual, that person's goose is cooked.


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BraveHeart
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11-10-06, 03:12 PM (EST)
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26. "RE: weapon"
In response to message #25
 
   In forensic circles this is known as "the smoking stone club" (not to be confused with smoking the peace pipe at the club until stoned).

here's the rub: these weapons have no serial numbers, are not required to be registered, would have been wrapped in duct tape that no longer exists except as carbon molecules to preserve forensic neutrality and probably is mounted on somebody's wall far removed from the killer by now.

some of them are undoubtedly decorated with BEAVER or BEAR or WOLF fur. They don't make a lot of noise when used. As long as you keep it tucked in your belt when you walk down the street in your indian costume no one will get too excited, not like you waving a pistol in one hand and a kitchen knife in the other, or a baseball bat.

And they are very lethal.


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Margoo
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11-10-06, 03:26 PM (EST)
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27. "RE: weapon"
In response to message #26
 
   I agree, Braveheart, that the weapon used could just as easily be your "smoking stone club" (SSC) as anything, since it fits many of the requirements to make the list, if not the top of the list.

But I'm curious about a man in an Indian costume, walking the streets of Boulder, at CHRISTMAS time with his SSC tucked in his belt! LOL! The image amuses me and certainly would have been something I'd have taken note of had I seen him! But then, I'd have taken note of a man in a Santa 'costume', even at Christmas time.


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