After revisiting old books, documents, depos, etc. it's amazing how much White was trying to control. It's hard to remember them all. I think it would be useful to start a timeline for White with incidents reported prior to the murder and immediately after the murder...to date.

Thoughts?

Mame, I am fully in favor of DOCUMENTING and record-keeping. It would be oh-so-nice if it could be found in one location. I'm all for it.

I'll be back...

In order to have built that type of friendship, they had to have had a lot in common.

When devastation occurs such as what the Ramseys experienced, the family loses EVERYTHING! They can't focus, they can't function, they can't speak, and they can't think straight. The affect of that combination as well as the tragedy itself, has a severe impact on everything, including friendship. The Ramsey's faith AND trust had crumbled. They trusted no one and they questioned their loving Father.

The Whites were right in the middle of all of this. They were the last family to feed JonBenet and were there when her body was discovered. Just imagine that, if anyone really can. I can understand, particularly based on the "behavior" of the BPD, why the Whites were (and may continue to be) frightened.

In the end, the Ramseys realized that their "good" friends did not and could not harm their child.

I'm quite confident that no matter what rocks would be unturned, Fleet White and family would not be found to have a nefarious past.

I have four children, the oldest is 28. I must say some of my dearest friends are those who had children we raised at the same time. Many I was very close to...but, there were a few families we traveled with, skied with, hiked with, the kids had sleepovers....we knew the grandparents well....spent some time during holidays together. There were a choice few that were invited to family dinners, etc. From reading about the White's and Ramsey's...it appeared they had this kind of relationship.

I can certainly see misunderstandings especially in a situation like this. HOWEVER, even if a dispute erupted, which seems natural...the friends I have like this would ultimately come to me and my family and say, "Hey, guys I've heard you're naming me in this murder. Is this true? Tell me what has happened?" Dear friends ultimately find a way to deal with each other fact to face, and working things through vowing to work together to find the murderer of the child they all adored...adults and children.

My eldest child lost a couple friends to accidental death. Their deaths broke my heart almost as if they were my own children. To this day it hurts to think about the loss.

It appears that didn't happen with the Whites. They immediately began controlling situations, even Patsy...became violent in Atlanta...grew angry over petty material things...to the point the police had to be called and felt the need to stay on the scene for 6 hours!

This is not a picture of dear friends. Far from it.

Whether or not Fleet White controlled Patsy seems quite debatable. Patsy to me seemed like an exceptionally strong woman (everyone who knew her have said so) and I doubt very much if she was easily controlled by anyone, including Fleet White.

Have you ever heard Fleet White speak of little Jonbenet in a loving way? In all his dozens of pages of letters to the editor, state of Colorado, CU Regents...do you ever remember him speaking directly about this child? He speaks of his controlling self...but, never ever the child.

If you've read the depositions and Ramsey Q & A's it's clear the Ramsey's were very suspect of the Whites. It took them awhile which is totally natural. Even thinking about naming someone so close would be heartbreaking. But, ultimately they were very clear about their
concerns.

I don't know if the context of the White letters would have changed if JonBenet's name had been added to them.

Personally, I have always respected the Whites because they are the only ones that I am aware of that have kept everything involving this crime under wraps and have not given interviews or sold any information. That's really the way it should be if for no other reason than the mere sake of common decency.

And, the Ramsey's said far more about the White's as suspects...In addition, the White's have been at the top of their investigators lists for years. Why would they allow that?

I wouldn't be opposed at all to work on the timeline.

As far as the Whites being on the top of the Ramsey's investigators' lists, I'm guessing Jameson would be the one who would know a lot about that. Maybe she'll add some clarification.

I WOULD be interested in anything the Ramseys have said about the Whites as suspects, though, that is, besides what I posted above. Since the majority of my research has, admittedly, been on the McReynolds, I don't have such comments/statements at my finger tips.

Why was Priscilla saying the Ramseys needed to listen to them because they knew what was really going on when she told Patsy about a false semen report? I have lots of questions about their behavior.

Any thoughts? Should I just start posting? And then gather dates and text later?

We really haven't heard Fleet speak at all. I didn't see anything where he said JonBenet is dead now, we have to think of Boulder. Maybe someone will post it here or on the timeline. I already discussed above the Atlanta behavior but I would also like to see something about Fleet's hands around Jeff's throat. IOW, since I've not seen anything Fleet and Priscilla have said, I'm hoping someone would post statements/comments they made here and source them.

The Whites KNEW that LE was looking to pin this on John and Patsy and the Whites were trying to convince/warn them of that.
However, without sources, everything the Whites have purportedly said and done is hearsay and rumors and the discussions turn into nothing more than "he said" "she said". This is not to say these things were not said and done, but sourcing them would be a good place to start.

I have a source for everything the McReynolds have said as well as a source for everthing that people said about them in the Boulder and other areas. I have a source for everything they have written (that I have been able to get ahold of).

The "source" for the ransom note telling us about a snuff film is me as well as a simple dictionary. If you know or require another way to "source", as you say, a theory or opinion, let me and everyone else know.

And yes, I have read the Death of Innocence and when and if I use it as a source I will state so and post the actual portion of the book I am sourcing.

I take it from your response that you are unable to source these things regarding Fleet White. Is that a correct assumption?

Good, and I look forward to reading them.

A Timeline is a good way to try to keep everything in one place. I too am looking forward to reading it.

What I don't understand is the ABSENCE OF EMPATHY it SEEMS existed in the Whites' character (or maybe some would say lack of character). From what we've seen and heard in terms of written words and behaviors, the Whites, particularly Fleet, seemed to only be concerned about himself, how HE was feeling, how the murder affected HIM, without having the ability to MULTIPLY that by many times in projecting how the Ramseys must have felt. Instead, he seemed to focus on HIMSELF and to worry about HIMSELF - without regard for the fact that all that was happening to HIM was happening to the Ramseys, only far worse.

One of the WORST insults (IMO) was when the Whites refused, for reasons not understood, to permit a first year memorial service in "their" church (First Presbyterian where JonBenét had attended pre-school) in Boulder. What kind of callous "friend" would do that?

I Do think Fleet White is very much INTO himself and I also believe that he suffers from serious mental health issues, more than likely, manic depression. He seems to possess all the characteristic signs. People who suffer from bipolar disorder have a tendency to be quite narcissistic indeed.

I would imagine if Fleet DOES suffer from BPD he might not have wanted that to be devulged.

I would really be interested in a source for the church issue since I am unfamiliar with that information. Also, what was Fleet White's "position" in "their" church?

DOI, paperback, p245-247

In the early part of December our friends came to us with the idea of a remembrance service for JonBenét. John and I wanted to travel to Boulder to attend, but we came to the conclusion that we couldn’t show up without the media making the event into a circus. …. With reluctance, John and I decided not to attend the special memorial service.

The idea of a one-year remembrance began with Margaret Harrington, Roxy Walker, and Susan Stine. … they felt it would be helpful to spend a few moments reflecting on our daughter’s life and thanking God for this beautiful child. Because JonBenét had gone to preschool at the First Presbyterian Church and it was Margaret’s home church, that congregation seemed to be the right place for the service.

When our friends approached the church with the idea, the ministers were supportive and plans were put in place. However, as soon as word got out, Fleet and Priscilla White, who also attend First Presbyterian, protested holding a service for JonBenét there. For reasons we didn’t understand, the Whites apparently demanded that the church back off and refuse to allow the service to take place.

We were grateful for the wonderful group of people who came to the First United Methodist Church on December 14 and paused during the busiest time of the year to thank God for our child and ask his blessing on JonBenét’s memory.

(This is when John and Patsy, who did not attend, wrote a “message of appreciation to our friends to be printed on the back of the liturgy of the day. … John and I had each written a version. With both copies in hand, John dictated and I typed at the computer as we merged the two into one. Later Susan Stine and Roxy Walker made a few edits as they typed it into the liturgical program. This edited version included the phrase and hence. Those two words turned out to be the next bombshell!”)

Thank you Margoo. It appears that Patsy and John don't understand, either why Fleet didn't want the service there or they don't understand why the church didn't, in its final decision, allow it to be held there. I DO still wonder what position, besides congregation member, Fleet might have with the church.

Maybe a little backgound information would be good regarding the Ramseys religious preferences. I may be wrong because I REALLY have not paid too much attention to the religions, however, I think the Ramseys were Presbyterian, yet, while in Boulder, they supported and attended the Episcopal Church which is where the Memorial Service for JonBenet was held.(?) Then, in Atlanta, the service and funeral was held at their Presbyterian Church.(?) And here we have a memorial prayer service being held at a Methodist Church.

As we all know, religion is a very touchy subject, and what might seem like something simple to us, really may not have been simple at all. I should mention that the pre-school of the church is a separate entity entirely and has its own Board of Directors. I would doubt a child has to be a member of the church to attend the pre-school. So because a child DID attend would not entitle that person (family) to benefit of the church itself. I've edited to also add, that such a "function" would have gone before the Board of Directors of the church for consideration and the ensuing discussion would have included the obvious media focus such an event would bring.

I await from other posters for corrections or comments regarding the various churches since this is clearly from my memory alone, which is often faulty.

Quoting from DOI ... The idea of a one-year remembrance began with Margaret Harrington, Roxy Walker, and Susan Stine. … they felt it would be helpful to spend a few moments reflecting on our daughter’s life and thanking God for this beautiful child. Because JonBenét had gone to preschool at the First Presbyterian Church and it was Margaret’s home church, that congregation seemed to be the right place for the service.

The Whites stepped in and kiboshed the plans made by another member of the church. The MAIN PURPOSE was to hold a one-year memorial service to celebrate the life of a murdered 6-year-old girl. Why stand in the way of such a service? If they were true Christians, what reasons could they possibly have had to deny that celebration in "their" church and HOW come the church gave in to the Whites over the wishes of Margaret Harrington? The level of donations?

Like I said, Margoo, it would have had to go before the Board of Directors. Not all requests to hold functions at a church are honored for a variety of reasons. I doubt it mattered at all that it was one of the planner's church. Members can not just plan functions at the church without receiving prior permission. It would have been a media circus (which it was) and I'm sure the church had concerns in that regard. Although all three of the religions mentioned are Christian religions, I can not answer WHY it might seem like an un-Christian decision, except to say, it happens all the time in all faiths. And, without knowing the discussions that took place before the Board, it is difficult to know if it was JUST Fleet White who didn't want it held there. After all, a vote of the Board Members would have been taken and obviously the majority (or whatever the by-laws require for motions) voted against it. I don't think we can jump to a conclusion that Fleet was a larger contributor than Margaret though. I would also imagine a factor was that the RAMSEY'S were not members.

It would be interesting to read the minutes of that meeting. I am still interested in knowing if Fleet was a member of the church Board at the time.

Margoo, the "point" is that the decision was not Fleet's (or Margaret's) to make and it's not possible that he (or she), alone, made that decision.

Henrietta McPhee
Barkingside, UK

This is an interesting posting with regard to Fleet White which cheekysodd made on another JonBenet forum a couple of years ago. I agree with evrything that was written here about Fleet:"Here's something for Nancy naysayers to consider: Forget Nancy. Assume she's a delusional liar and irrelevant to this case.

Fleet still makes a prime suspect for many reasons:*He "accidentally" called 911 on the 23rd while at the Ramsey Christmas party

*According to Patsy, he went to the wine cellar on the 23rd to get wine

*He left the house with a note pad

*He immediately checked the locked wine cellar after he arrived at the house on the 26th

*He failed to comfort John

*He took extensive notes

*He tampered with the crime scene twice, and ignored a police order to protect the crime scene

*He left the living room while everyone else prayed for JonBenet and her parents

*He disrupted the mourning for JonBenet

*He scared Ramsey friends and family. 911 was called because of his behaviour

*He disrupted a private counseling visit between the Ramseys and Hoverstock

*He prevented a memorial service for JonBenet at his church

*He knew the RN by heart, according to Patsy

*He often said John's name when talking to him, like the RN writer

*He spoke about conspiracies and erotic asphyxiation of children before the BCC on August 6 and never mentioned that it was her birthday

*He is obsessed with this case and how it is handled, to the degree that he used the case as an excuse for ignoring 2 supoenas, was convicted of contempt and given the maximum jail sentence

*He wanted Hunter, Wise, and who knows how many other DA's disbarred for talking to the media and not arresting the Ramseys

*At the same time, he frequently breakfasted with the case's biggest blabbermouth, Steve Thomas. That must be OK, since Thomas blames Patsy.*Fleet, who claims a distain for the media, expected them to publish all of his letters

*He was friendly with he who must not be mentioned (Spade) and has a very bad reputation, and who sold many malicious and untruthful stories to the tabs. That must be OK since the unmentionable one blames the Ramseys and Burke in particular.*He basically and literally expects everyone to "follow his instructions to the letter"*He is an expert, champion sailor ,"Victory!", taught John a lot about sail racing, planned their outings,"Don't try to grow a brain"*He raced sailboats at 118.000.00 degrees longitude in Newport Beach, CA

*He was called "morally empty" by the BPD head of police

*Poster "B" said Fleet made JonBenet uncomfortable in Charlevoix

These are reasons why Fleet was,and maybe still is, a suspect in this case, Nancy or no Nancy.

Perhaps there are other reasons that the public is not aware of."

Colorado v Miller court case, August 2001:

THE COURT: All right. Mr. White, if you would step up to the podium. I need to ask you a couple of questions. How old are you, sir?

THE DEFENDANT: I am 52.

THE COURT: What is your educational background?

THE DEFENDANT: I have a Bachelor’s Degree.

THE COURT: In what?

THE DEFENDANT: Sociology.

THE COURT: From where?

THE DEFENDANT: University of California at Santa Barbara.

THE COURT: And what has your work been during your life?

THE DEFENDANT: I had a number of jobs in my teens –

THE COURT: Well, let’s just say the last 20 years.

THE DEFENDANT: I own and operate an oil and gas exploration company.

THE COURT: Thank you. Can you give me a little idea of the size of that company, number of employees, annual gross.

THE DEFENDANT: Sorry, gross?

THE COURT: Annual gross, number of employees.

THE DEFENDANT: The business was very profitable and it had – in good years we made quite a bit of money—

THE COURT: I’m asking for numbers, sir.

THE DEFENDANT: A million dollars annually in certain years. We had anywhere from – early in the 1980’s we had as many as 20, 25 employees.

In the 1980s a million dollars gross annually was much more than a million is today. Not a bad income. Of course, he may have had income from some of his father's other companies/subsidiaries/dba's as well.

If Fleet is anything like most men, I doubt he knew JonBenet's birthday when she was alive either. Why would he be expected to know the dates of his friend's children? Now remembering the date of JonBenet's murder, that's another thing.

However, there ARE people who don't remember significant dates at all, such as the McReynolds who SAID they didn't remember that their daughter and her friend had been kidnapped on the same date as JonBenet's death, only 22 years hence.

I think their actions on the morning of the 26th were fine - but when it became clear the cops were becoming suspicious of people close to the Ramseys - - well, I think they did everything they could to get out of that group.

I have also created some wiki pages to link to, along with Miss Marple's site, so the longer transcripts now have links.

Evening, I've never heard that White was Bipolar/Manic Depressive?!?! Wow. Do you have a source for that? I wouldn't expect him to have Bipolar as his characteristics really don't fit. I look forward to reading about it.

How would I have a source for that? From what I am reading about his behavior, from the fact that it seems he did not work (in an every-day capacity), I would definitely say it seems as though he is bipolar. I have a daughter who IS bipolar and I recognize the symptoms and behavior all too well. People who are bipolar also have a lot of drama in their lives. Also, parents who have bipolar children never do quite have a situation of non-support for that child, no matter what their age.

This is what Patsy said about the matter in her 1998 interview:

12 PATSY RAMSEY: Okay. You know, it wasn't

13 like a full-blown wine cellar, but we kept a couple

14 boxes of wine in there. And I want to say that -- I

15 don't remember whether it was the night of the 23rd,

16 that party or some party we had, I remember somebody

17 saying we are out of red wine. And I said please

18 (inaudible) to or something. But at some time, please

19 go to the basement to get some more red wine, but he

20 would know where that was.

21 TOM HANEY: Okay.

22 PATSY RAMSEY: This guy named Bob Ballis

23 (phonetic) who did some Christmas decorations, he made

24 these things, you know, a year or more before when we

25 had the Christmas open house. He would know about

0352

1 that.

2 TRIP DEMUTH: My question is: Who had been

3 in that room prior to Christmas of '96, Bob Ballis, was

4 he the Christmas of '95?

5 PATSY RAMSEY: Yeah. Right.

6 TRIP DEMUTH: Okay. In the months prior to

7 Christmas of 1996 Fleet would have gone in there?

8 PATSY RAMSEY: I would say Fleet, the

9 cleaning lady and --

10 TRIP DEMUTH: Maybe the husband?

11 PATSY RAMSEY: Maybe the husband and maybe

12 the daughter.

"If Fleet is anything like most men, I doubt he knew JonBenet's birthday when she was alive either. Why would he be expected to know the dates of his friend's children? Now remembering the date of JonBenet's murder, that's another thing."

I couldn't disagree more. Fleet White would have to live in a cave to not know it was her birthday! White is aware of every single news item that is published on the case. The most famous unsolved murder case of the century...in which he is a major player (both as witness and suspect)..the event he spends every waking minute trying to control and file lawsuits? His daughter's best friend? Priscilla went to the BCC with him...believe me...they both knew what day it was!

You may want to diagnose him as Bipolar and suffering from masculine forgetfulness...I don't think so.

He may have "known" the date of JonBenet's birthday if asked, however I'm saying that when that date rolls around he might not realize at the time. IOW, when pressed, my husband "usually" knows the dates of our children's birthdays (not of the grandchildren though and certainly not of our friend's children), but when those dates roll around each year, he doesn't realize it is a birthday, until I tell him, and then he says, "oh yeah!". I hope I'm making myself clear on this point as I'm trying hard to do so.

I would ask however, since you think Fleet White would have to live in a cave to not realize it was JonBenet's birthday, was the fact that it was her birthday (that year) published in Fleet's local paper?

But, yes since the Boulder Daily Camera was also my hometown newspaper at the time...they always made a big deal of her birthday.

Your reply is not very specific, Mame. Are you saying that year JonBenet's birthday WAS published in the local paper? I realize that you also lived in Boulder at the time. If you ARE saying that year JonBenet's birthday WAS in the paper, then please provide that article. Thank you.

As far as I know, there is a search feature for the newspaper. I think only subscribers can search and retrieve archived articles. If you are no longer a subscriber, I think some other posters are.

I just don't think there is any validity to or factual basis for making the statement that "Fleet would have had to live in a cave" to not know that particular day was JonBenet's birthday at that time. Whether or not it is a major point would depend on how many times it is going to be posted as fact rather than fiction.

As you may have noticed, Mikie found Patsy's description of the 911 call made by Fleet White on December 23. If you find others I'm happy to check them out. The timeline is in DRAFT form right now...I expect there are errors. I have a large amount of information still to post. I hope everyone will continue to read updates and help me make corrections.

I no longer live in Boulder. There would be no point for me to subscribe to The Daily Camera.

Right back at you with your Ramsey bashing. They didn't cooperate, they didn't cry enough, they didn't do this and they didn't do that.
Might what to ask yourself the same question: HOW the hell do you KNOW, were you there?

Edited to add:

They better get used to it over there cuz' I hear there are some interesting surprises in the offing...