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Margoo
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11-04-06, 04:09 AM (EST)
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"The FIRST DNA TESTS"
 
   Remember that Screen Capture of the DNA lab report shown on the 48 Hours program? It wasn't clear, but here's what I got out of it:

LAB CLASS XX???-2136(?)-4153(?) SECTION: DNA TESTING
AGENCY(?) NAME – CD0878136 – F2 ACBLDER(?)

EXTRACTED(?) BY: blacked out EXTRACTION DATE: 123196(?)
ABSTRACT(X) AFA(?) ?/? ???
RAMSEY, PATSY W/F
RAMSEY, JOHN W/M
RAMSEY, JONBENET W/F

Two lines BLACKED OUT
DATE COMPLETED/JANUARY 13, 1997
EXTRACT(?) DESCRIPTION
#5A,5B# (?) Bloodstains from shirt
#7 Bloodstains from panties
#14B Bloodstain ????? from JonBenet Ramsey
#14J DNA? Or Swab? with Saliva????
#14L, #14M Right and Left hand fingernails from JonBenet Ramsey
#15A, #15B Samples from tape
Bloodstains from white blanket
#17A, #17C Bloodstains from nightgown??
#13A, #13B Semen ??? stain from black blanket
Bloodstain Standard from John Andrew Ramsey
_________________________________________________________________(fold in page??)
LABORATORY REPORT
BB AB BB AA AC 24,26
??????? Section Testing WB
BB AB BB AA AC 24,26
WB WB
BB AB BB AA AC 24,26
WA WB WB W18 (?)

THE DNA PROFILES DEVELOPED FROM EXHIBITS #5A, 5B, AND 17C MATCHED THE PROFILE FROM JONBENET RAMSEY.
(the left side of the page seems to be cut off and starts with)
FED FROM EXHIBITS #7, 14L AND 14M REVEALED A MIX-
(left side cut off) COMPONENT MATCHED JONBENET RAMSEY. IF THE MINOR
(left side cut off) 5 #7, 14L AND 14M WERE CONTRIBUTED BY A SINGLE
(JOHN is cut off) ANDREW RAMSEY, MELINDA RAMSEY, JOHN B. RAMSEY, JEFF RAMSEY (blacked out)

(cut off??) EXCLUDED AS A SOURCE OF THE DNA ANALYZED.

At that point the names go off the screen, but we can reasonably infer that the rest of the listing is of BLOODSTAIN STANDARD FROM John, Patsy, Burke and Melinda, plus John's brother Jeff and another named individual or two or three who have been censored out of the broadcast copy

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

THIS is CLEAR EVIDENCE that the FIRST tests "completed Jan 13, 1997" used an identification kit that profiled only FIVE MARKERS and were identified as:

1. BB - means one parent contributed B and one contributed A at this location in the DNA
2. AB - means one parent contributed A and one contributed B at this location in the DNA
3. BB - means one parent contributed B and the other B at this location
4. AA - means one parent contributed A and the other A at this location
5. AC - means one parent contributed A and the other C at this location


These 5 "identifications" are repeated three times in this report and it is revealed that they identify JonBenét's DNA, which matched "exhibits" #5A & #5B, "bloodstains from shirt" and #17C, "bloodstains from nightgown".

~~~~~~~~~~

Say we have a VERY poor sample of the foreign componenet of the mixed DNA sample in this case where there is only ONE marker and that marker is in "position" 1. (See above: JonBenét's is identified as "BB").

Say the foreign componenet of the mixed DNA identifies "position" 1 as AA.

Then we get a sample of DNA from a suspect and his "position" 1 marker is AC. We know FROM JUST THAT ONE MARKER that he is NOT the contributor of the foreign DNA because his "postion" 1 marker is not AA. HE IS ELIMINATED on the basis of just that ONE marker! No matter how "minute", "degraded", "incomplete", less than perfect the DNA profile, we can eliminate EVERYONE whose DNA does NOT come up as AA in the "postion" 1 marker.

Okay, so let's say we have a slightly better sample with TWO MARKERS. "Position" 1 is AA and "position" 2 is BB. (Looking at JonBenét's DNA, her "position" 1 is BB and her "position" 2 is AB.)

Say we get a suspect and his DNA shows "position" 1 is AA, but his "position" 2 is AB. We can eliminate him and EVERYONE whose "position" 1 is NOT AA and/or "position" 2 is NOT AB. That's a LOT of eliminating with ONLY TWO markers.

With THREE markers, EVEN more discrimination is determined. There are only FIVE to begin with.

~~~~~~~~
By itself, that polymarker identity kit doesn't have as much information as we'd like though because it's not too unusual for two different people to have AA in "position" 1. If you have a piece of evidence with DNA that's AA at "position" 1 and a known person that's AA at the same location, that will happen fairly often just by chance.

The polymarker test uses five locations that are identified like that and provides a fair amount of information, exponentially increasing discriminatory information with the addition of each marker pulled out of the DNA profiling process.

DQ ALPHA

THEN there's the DQ ALPHA, identified in JonBenét as type 24,26 in the screen capture.

DQ Alpha is identified as numerical designations. There are 21 combinations. You might get a 1.1 from one parent and a 1.1 from another parent. Or you might get a 4 from each of your parents and be a 4, 4. Or you might get a 1.1 from one parent and a 4 from the other, in which case you'd be a 1.1, 4.

Each one of these that have a number designation in the DNA is different because there's a difference in the sequence of the base pairs at that DQ Alpha location. This offers even more discrimination than just the identities in 5 locations described above.

~~~~~~~~~~~
RFLP v PCR

When there is a larger DNA sample in good condition, RFLP testing is usual. When there is a smaller sample or one that is not in good condition, PCR testing is the usual. The RFLP test is much more powerful in discriminating between one person and the next. Any particular RFLP banding pattern is not a common event.

If they can't do an RFLP test and they do a PCR test, they are not getting the same amount of information, but it's still useful. It allows them to exclude someone as being a contributor and it allows them to include one as being a possible contributor. Then they can put a frequency to that ==>> how often might you see this combination of genetic types. If that number is one in a million, you wouldn't see that combination very often.

We were told that in the Ramsey case the testing was PCR, DS180

~~~~~~~~
DEGRADATION:

In the context of DNA, it means that the DNA molecule is broken down.

Let's say that the DNA molecule is equivalent to a very long piece of thread unwound from a spool, that would be one DNA molecule from one chromosome.

If I took a pair of scissors and cut that thread in 40 different places that might be the equivalent to the DNA being slightly degraded, randomly broken in 40 different locations. It is no longer all in one piece.

So if I took that same thread and I cut it at 1,000 locations, it would be in a lot smaller pieces and that would be the eqivalent of being more degraded than if I cut it in 40 locations.

Degradation is something the labs see all the time. If I had somebody draw my blood and had the DNA extracted from it right then, the result would be DNA that's in very good condition, but might be broken up a little bit just due to the process of handling it.

If you have human cells left at a crime scene and those cells are not in the body any longer, they are subjected to whatever environmental factors at that crime scene ==>> sunlight, heat or a number of other factors. All of the things that affect the cells of a deceased person will eventually affect the DNA and it will gradually degrade. Depending on where it is and what conditions it's under, it may degrade more, or it may degrade less.

They are still able to test degraded DNA to determine the information described and degradation won't change somebody's type to be something other than what it started out to be. So you either have
- all the information that's there in the DNA,
- lose SOME of it, or
- lose all of it.

SUBSTRATE CONTROL
is when they take an area of the cloth that is not obviously stained, but adjacent to the stained area, or, if they were lifting a stain from a surface, they would lift the stain up and then take another lift from an area adjacent to the stain that was not apparently stained. They would hope for no detectable result from the substrate control.


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  Subject     Author     Message Date     ID  
  RE: The FIRST DNA TESTS Mikiemoderator 11-04-06 1
     RE: The FIRST DNA TESTS Rainsong 11-04-06 2
         RE: The FIRST DNA TESTS Margoo 11-04-06 5
  RE: The FIRST DNA TESTS Rainsong 11-04-06 3
     RE: The FIRST DNA TESTS one_eyed_Jack 11-04-06 4
         RE: The FIRST DNA TESTS Margoo 11-04-06 6
     RE: The FIRST DNA TESTS Margoo 11-04-06 7
         RE: The FIRST DNA TESTS Mikiemoderator 11-05-06 8
             RE: The FIRST DNA TESTS Margoo 11-05-06 9
                 RE: The FIRST DNA TESTS Margoo 11-05-06 10
                     RE: The FIRST DNA TESTS Mikiemoderator 11-05-06 11
                         RE: The FIRST DNA TESTS Margoo 11-06-06 12
                             RE: The FIRST DNA TESTS Margoo 11-06-06 13
                                 RE: The FIRST DNA TESTS Margoo 11-06-06 14
                                     RE: The FIRST DNA TESTS Mikiemoderator 11-06-06 15
                                         RE: The FIRST DNA TESTS Margoo 11-06-06 16
                                             RE: The FIRST DNA TESTS Mikiemoderator 11-06-06 17

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Mikiemoderator
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11-04-06, 09:01 AM (EST)
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1. "RE: The FIRST DNA TESTS"
In response to message #0
 
   Is it an unwritten rule that we cannot copy things from another forum?

Anyway, on Websleuths forum, a poster named Jayelles studied the blacked out names (apparently from the Tracey report, which must have originally publicized the actual blacked-out document) and concluded that "Mervin Pugh" and "Fleet and Priscilla White" were blacked out names of persons who were eliminated by the DNA. She found that those two names fit perfectly in the blacked out portions.


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Rainsong
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11-04-06, 12:08 PM (EST)
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2. "RE: The FIRST DNA TESTS"
In response to message #1
 
   >Is it an unwritten rule that we cannot copy things from
>another forum?
>
>Anyway, on Websleuths forum, a poster named Jayelles studied
>the blacked out names (apparently from the Tracey report,
>which must have originally publicized the actual blacked-out
>document) and concluded that "Mervin Pugh" and "Fleet and
>Priscilla White" were blacked out names of persons who were
>eliminated by the DNA. She found that those two names fit
>perfectly in the blacked out portions.

Many of us have seen the Jayelles conclusion. I don't believe it has merit. Unless she had the original document to work with, had proper equipment to read below the marker blacking out the names, her conclusion is nothing more than her conclusion.

I prefer science.

Rainsong


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Margoo
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11-04-06, 02:34 PM (EST)
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5. "RE: The FIRST DNA TESTS"
In response to message #2
 
  
>Many of us have seen the Jayelles conclusion. I don't
>believe it has merit. Unless she had the original document
>to work with, had proper equipment to read below the marker
>blacking out the names, her conclusion is nothing more than
>her conclusion.
>
>I prefer science.
>
>Rainsong

I've seen it and reported here on it some time ago (and, Mikie, there were no repercussions, so I think it was okay to do so). I actually believe it does have merit, Rainsong. It's not definitive, but it seems reasonable to me that the names in the report could very well have been the names of the earliest people whose dna was collected. It's an 'educated' guess so to speak and it did look like the tops of the letters that were blacked out matched those names. I thought Jayelles did a very good job of demonstrating that.


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Rainsong
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11-04-06, 12:09 PM (EST)
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3. "RE: The FIRST DNA TESTS"
In response to message #0
 
   Thank you, Margoo.


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one_eyed_Jack
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11-04-06, 12:19 PM (EST)
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4. "RE: The FIRST DNA TESTS"
In response to message #3
 
   That was very informative, Margoo. Thank you for posting it.


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Margoo
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11-04-06, 02:37 PM (EST)
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6. "RE: The FIRST DNA TESTS"
In response to message #4
 
   >That was very informative, Margoo. Thank you for posting it.

You are welcome. Here's the problem when we discuss DNA. We can't seem to get a layman's language that works and is understandable for communication amongst us. As we all know, there's an awful lot more to it than what's in the first post, but I've been trying to figure out a way to get some common ground for understanding what we are "talking" about. I hope this will help and I hope that the information in the screen capture is helpful in trying to sort out what's been established as "fact".


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Margoo
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11-04-06, 02:38 PM (EST)
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7. "RE: The FIRST DNA TESTS"
In response to message #3
 
   >Thank you, Margoo.

You are welcome, Rainsong.


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Mikiemoderator
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11-05-06, 11:28 AM (EST)
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8. "RE: The FIRST DNA TESTS"
In response to message #7
 
   LAST EDITED ON 11-05-06 AT 11:32 AM (EST)
 
Margoo:
I got this from another forum. The emboldened text is missing in your post, which is also below.

"Based on these results,
the DNA profiles developed from exhibits #5A, 5B, 14I, 15A, 15B, 17A,
and 17C matched the profile from Jonbenet Ramsey.

The DNA profiles developed from exhibits #7, 14L and 14M revealed a mixture of which the major
component matched Jonbenet Ramsey. If the minor components from exhibits
#7, 14L and 14 M were contributed by a single individual then John
Andrew Ramsey, Melinda Ramsey, John B. Ramsey, Patricia Ramsey, Burke Ramsey,
Jeff Ramsey, XXXXXXXXXXXXXXX and XXXXXXXXX, would be
excluded as a source of the DNA analyzed on those exhibits.

Here is your post:

THE DNA PROFILES DEVELOPED FROM EXHIBITS #5A, 5B, AND 17C MATCHED THE PROFILE FROM JONBENET RAMSEY.
(the left side of the page seems to be cut off and starts with)
FED FROM EXHIBITS #7, 14L AND 14M REVEALED A MIX-
(left side cut off) COMPONENT MATCHED JONBENET RAMSEY. IF THE MINOR
(left side cut off) 5 #7, 14L AND 14M WERE CONTRIBUTED BY A SINGLE
(JOHN is cut off) ANDREW RAMSEY, MELINDA RAMSEY, JOHN B. RAMSEY, JEFF RAMSEY (blacked out)

(cut off??) EXCLUDED AS A SOURCE OF THE DNA ANALYZED.


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Margoo
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11-05-06, 10:13 PM (EST)
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9. "RE: The FIRST DNA TESTS"
In response to message #8
 
   LAST EDITED ON 11-05-06 AT 10:22 PM (EST)
 
THANKS, MIKIE! I'm not 100% confident about every word filled in by whoever filled the blanks in, but I think whoever posted this has it right for the most part. I'm not sure about the phrase "analyzed on those exhibits" ("from those exhibits" would be a more likely phrasing) and so my intuition suggests somebody filled in a blank or two on their own without actually being able to read what was written due to the wording of that phrase.

Also, there is no "14I", so I'm thinking that MIGHT be 14L, but I don't know if this poster has taken liberties or not by adding in "14I, 15A, 15B, and 17A".

I suspect the poster is Why_Nut. I'm not disagreeing, but I'm just not 100% sure that hir was able to "read" it or just filled in that extra info on the basis of some assumption. That phrase "analyzed on those exhibits" suggests there MAY have been some presumptions made as to what was actually in the report as opposed to what was readable. JUST MY OPINION.

EDITED TO ADD - in case I've not been clear ... it SHOULD read (in my opinion) "excluded as a source of the DNA analyzed FROM those exhibits", NOT "on those exhibits". The fact that it is not worded correcly makes me suspicious.


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Margoo
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11-05-06, 10:16 PM (EST)
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10. "RE: The FIRST DNA TESTS"
In response to message #9
 
   LAST EDITED ON 11-05-06 AT 10:25 PM (EST)
 
Here is your post:

THE DNA PROFILES DEVELOPED FROM EXHIBITS #5A, 5B, AND 17C MATCHED THE PROFILE FROM JONBENET RAMSEY.
(the left side of the page seems to be cut off and starts with)
FED FROM EXHIBITS #7, 14L AND 14M REVEALED A MIX-
(left side cut off) COMPONENT MATCHED JONBENET RAMSEY. IF THE MINOR
(left side cut off) 5 #7, 14L AND 14M WERE CONTRIBUTED BY A SINGLE
(JOHN is cut off) ANDREW RAMSEY, MELINDA RAMSEY, JOHN B. RAMSEY, JEFF RAMSEY (blacked out)

(cut off??) EXCLUDED AS A SOURCE OF THE DNA ANALYZED

I would agree that this should be changed to read

THE DNA PROFILES DEVELOPED FROM EXHIBITS #5A, 5B, AND 17C MATCHED THE PROFILE FROM JONBENET RAMSEY.
(the left side of the page seems to be cut off and starts with)
PED FROM EXHIBITS #7, 14L AND 14M REVEALED A MIX-
(left side cut off) COMPONENT MATCHED JONBENET RAMSEY. IF THE MINOR
(left side cut off) S #7, 14L AND 14M WERE CONTRIBUTED BY A SINGLE
(JOHN is cut off) ANDREW RAMSEY, MELINDA RAMSEY, JOHN B. RAMSEY, JEFF RAMSEY (blacked out)

(cut off??) EXCLUDED AS A SOURCE OF THE DNA ANALYZED


EDITED TO ADD - since it's not obvious (even though I used bold HTML), I changed the "F" at the start of line 4 to a P because I agree that it probably is a P and the "5" in line 6 to an "S" because I had thought it might be an "S" in the first place.


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Mikiemoderator
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11-05-06, 11:47 PM (EST)
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11. "RE: The FIRST DNA TESTS"
In response to message #10
 
   Okay, I didn't want to spend time on this because it really does not accomplish much in my opinion, but I see you are trying to interpret something and it appears to me that you don't have the full picture, so I am trying to bring the full picture into view for you.

Apparently the screen captures you are basing your study on are jamesons...these two gif files:


The Jayelles posts show these two, which were her modifications to what looks very much like the same thing.

Now the third post by Sprocket on Crimeshots True Crime forums says his/her source is FFJ forum Lacey Press conference post #38 (which I cannot find), but he/she gives what looks like the complete text.

So I understand your caution. I believe that Patsy Ramsey was excluded. Of course you and anyone else like Rainsong can accept whatever you or they choose, but I think the Jayelles post and the Sprocket post are acceptable. I don't think they are guessing...they have the whole document or a more complete screen capture, for some reason...perhaps because they are in Scotland or where a different version of the documentary occurred.


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Margoo
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11-06-06, 03:55 AM (EST)
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12. "RE: The FIRST DNA TESTS"
In response to message #11
 
   LAST EDITED ON 11-06-06 AT 03:59 AM (EST)
 
Mikie, I read what Jayelles DID to the ORIGINAL screen capture -- what she ADDED to it and now it is here being portrayed as an enlargement!!! You have enlarged the TAMPERED WITH copy --


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Margoo
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11-06-06, 03:59 AM (EST)
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13. "RE: The FIRST DNA TESTS"
In response to message #12
 
   LAST EDITED ON 11-06-06 AT 04:02 AM (EST)
 
Okay, I didn't want to spend time on this because it really does not accomplish much in my opinion

WHAT IT HAS accomplished is that the screen capture that was tampered with to illustrate a point Jayelles was making - she documented what she did to the ORIGINAL - is it has added another vehicle for THIS COPY to be "used" as though it is an actual copy.

Jayelles post and the Sprocket post are acceptable. I don't think they are guessing...they have the whole document or a more complete screen capture, for some reason...perhaps because they are in Scotland or where a different version of the documentary occurred

NO, THEY ARE NOT! IT IS YOU WHO DOES NOT HAVE THE "WHOLE PICTURE", MIKIE. I HAVE READ THE PROCESS JAYLLES APPLIED TO THE ORIGINAL DOCUMENT AND HOW IT WAS "DOCTORED" JUST TO MAKE A POINT. IT IS NOT JUST AN ENLARGEMENT OF AN 'ACTUAL' COPY. IT IS DOCTORED.

IMPORTANT! I HOPE THAT EVERYONE READING HERE CHECKS OUT WHAT I'VE POSTED AND DOES NOT JUST WALK AWAY ASSUMING THIS ENLARGED VERSION IS THE 'ACTUAL' SCREEN CAPTURE.


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Margoo
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11-06-06, 04:10 AM (EST)
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14. "RE: The FIRST DNA TESTS"
In response to message #13
 
   LAST EDITED ON 11-06-06 AT 04:12 AM (EST)
 
This is what I had in my notes (I believe I posted this some months ago, maybe longer) ...

From a screen capture of the Tracey documentary where Jayelles says the dna documents were 'panned by the camera', Jayelles - for what it's worth - cut and paste names into the blacked out sections where the tops of the letters still showed and the names of Fleet White, Priscilla White and Mervin Pugh - in her opinion best - fit the spacing between commas and the tops of the letters that were somewhat evident.

http://www.forumsforjustice.org/forums/showthread.php?t=4973&goto=nextoldest


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Mikiemoderator
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11-06-06, 08:39 AM (EST)
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15. "RE: The FIRST DNA TESTS"
In response to message #14
 
   LAST EDITED ON 11-06-06 AT 12:09 PM (EST)
 
Obviously it is "doctored". She had to put the names in to show how they fit. I don't question that. How else could she make her point? Besides, she put the undoctored next to her doctored to compare.

But Margoo, that does not explain how the names of Patricia Ramsey and Burke Ramsey are included in her version while not in jamesons.

I believe it was because SHE HAD A DIFFERENT SCREEN CAPTURE possibly because the version televised in the US was edited, after showing in the UK.

Don't you think Patsy and Burke were excluded by the DNA? The news accounts say that the entire Ramsey family was excluded. So why are their names not in the jameson version of the exclusion statement? I believe they were, but simply off the screen.

As I was saying, the exclusion of Patsy, Burke, Mervin, Fleet and Priscilla does not cause much change, at least in my thinking, since I do not believe they were JonBenet's killers anyway.

AND my belief (that there is another screen capture, more complete than jameson's) is supported by Sprocket's post which is entirely independent from Jayelle's, and is consistent with a screen capture that reveals the missing text to the right of the screen capture by jameson. To put it bluntly, jameson's screen capture is incomplete, misleading, and poor quality.


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Margoo
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11-06-06, 01:32 PM (EST)
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16. "RE: The FIRST DNA TESTS"
In response to message #15
 
   LAST EDITED ON 11-06-06 AT 01:34 PM (EST)
 
In her post (link provided) Jayelles said the screen capture she was using was from a Tracey documentary.

The one in this thread is from the 48 Hours documentary.

There are ERRORS in the 'transcription' of the Tracey documentary - in my opinion - as noted in post #9. Those errors are minor, as I also noted in post #9.

You and I are NOT disagreeing on anything but some very minor ERRORS. I said that "I think whoever posted this has it right for the most part".

I also happen to agree that the names Jayelles filled in could very well be Fleet White, Priscilla White, and Mervin Pugh. I think Jayelles did a very good job of demonstrating how they fit in so well.

The only concern I have (and you know how this works) is that people will take this all out of context and go off assuming the names ARE in fact Fleet, Priscilla, and Mervin Pugh.

I wanted it VERY CLEAR that the document posted was DOCTORED.


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Mikiemoderator
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11-06-06, 07:19 PM (EST)
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17. "RE: The FIRST DNA TESTS"
In response to message #16
 
   LAST EDITED ON 11-06-06 AT 07:23 PM (EST)
 
The Ramsey family was excluded as a source of the DNA. John Mark Karr was excluded. Michael Helgoth was excluded. If anyone else is excluded from a DNA match, they deserve to know and the public deserves to know. Why keep it secret?

This blacking out of excluded individuals names, concealment of evidence from the public, inability to investigate the most simple and logical suspects, and secrecy of the case in general, all adds up to only one thing for me...coverup.

And with everyone going around with their half-baked ideas of whodunit, preaching it on forums and fighting like crazy "for JonBenet", I have no problem with people taking any post like Jayelles' seriously..


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