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Conferences Ramsey discussion 2 Topic #2460
Reading Topic #2460
mBm
Member since 8-21-06
11-22-06, 03:02 PM (EST)
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"The Santa Bear Found in JB's Bedroom"
 
   >>I WILL BRIEFLY STEP OUTSIDE OF MY SELF-IMPOSED LIMITS ON WHAT I'L SAY ABOUT THE INVESTIGATION. THE SANTA BEAR IS, IN MY VIEW, VERY SIGNIFICANT, PARTLY BECAUSE, AS FAR AS I KNOW, NOONE KNOWS WHERE IT CAME FROM OR WHAT ITS MEANING WAS EXCEPT, IN ALL LIKELIHOOD, THE KILLER. IT CLEARLY MEANS SOMETHING, ALMOST IN A TAUNTING MANNER. THERE IS AN EXTREMELY INTERESTING, EVEN STRANGE, STORY CONNECTED TO THE BEAR THAT WILL PROBABLY EMERGE AT SOME POINT BUT NOT NOW<<

The above was taken from Mame's post of Michael Tracey's Q&A session with forum members back in 1999. In reading over his comments, I found the comment on the Santa Bear very telling. "Telling" in that it tells us nothing, yet tells us a lot.

What did Tracey mean when he said there is a strange, extremely interesting story connected to the bear that will "probably" emerge at some point?

He says very emphatically that, in his view, no one knows where it came from or what its meaing was, except, in all likelihood, the killer.

From the time this session was held in 1999, has anything been revealed that contradicts, expounds on, or answers any suggestions from Tracey?

Comments?


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  Subject     Author     Message Date     ID  
  RE: The Santa Bear Found in JB's Bedroom Mikiemoderator 11-22-06 1
     RE: The Santa Bear Found in JB's Bedroom mBm 11-22-06 2
         RE: The Santa Bear Found in JB's Bedroom Mikiemoderator 11-22-06 3
             RE: The Santa Bear Found in JB's Bedroom mBm 11-22-06 4
                 RE: The Santa Bear Found in JB's Bedroom BraveHeart 11-22-06 5
                     RE: The Santa Bear Found in JB's Bedroom mBm 11-22-06 6
                     RE: The Santa Bear Found in JB's Bedroom Evening2 11-22-06 7
                         RE: The Santa Bear Found in JB's Bedroom BraveHeart 11-22-06 8
                         RE: The Santa Bear Found in JB's Bedroom mBm 11-22-06 9
                             RE: The Santa Bear Found in JB's Bedroom Evening2 11-22-06 10
                                 RE: The Santa Bear Found in JB's Bedroom BraveHeart 11-22-06 11
                                     RE: The Santa Bear Found in JB's Bedroom Evening2 11-22-06 12
                                         RE: The Santa Bear Found in JB's Bedroom Mame 11-22-06 13
                                             RE: The Santa Bear Found in JB's Bedroom Evening2 11-22-06 14
                                             RE: The Santa Bear Found in JB's Bedroom Mame 11-23-06 15
                                             RE: The Santa Bear Found in JB's Bedroom mBm 11-23-06 16
                                             RE: timeline BraveHeart 11-24-06 17
                                             RE: timeline Mikiemoderator 11-24-06 18
                                             RE: timeline mBm 11-24-06 19
                                             RE: timeline ponyduck 11-24-06 20
                                             RE: timeline mBm 11-24-06 21
                                             RE: timeline Evening2 11-24-06 22
                                             RE: timeline mBm 11-24-06 23
                                             RE: timeline Evening2 11-24-06 24
                                             RE: About the note in the wastebasket Evening2 11-24-06 26
                                             RE: timeline ponyduck 11-24-06 25
                                             RE: timeline jamesonadmin 11-25-06 27

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Mikiemoderator
Member since 5-8-02
11-22-06, 04:10 PM (EST)
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1. "RE: The Santa Bear Found in JB's Bedroom"
In response to message #0
 
   The bear was given to JonBenet as part of a pageant package, according to jameson. The excitement about it died when that was learned.

However, I consider it possibly linked to the crime if it in fact had built-in spyware.

And where, exactly, is it now? Nobody knows.


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mBm
Member since 8-21-06
11-22-06, 05:17 PM (EST)
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2. "RE: The Santa Bear Found in JB's Bedroom"
In response to message #1
 
   >The bear was given to JonBenet as part of a pageant package,
>according to jameson. The excitement about it died when
>that was learned.

Not meaning to doubt Jams' word on this, but Tracy seems to feel differently, e.g.:

What did Tracey mean when he said there is a strange, extremely interesting story connected to the bear that will "probably" emerge at some point?

Jams' explanation does not qualify, imo, as being "extremely interesting". It appears Tracy has something else in mind.

>And where, exactly, is it now? Nobody knows.

Does this mean even LE does not know? It is more likely that LE has the Santa Bear, holding it in evidence.


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Mikiemoderator
Member since 5-8-02
11-22-06, 05:56 PM (EST)
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3. "RE: The Santa Bear Found in JB's Bedroom"
In response to message #2
 
   >>The bear was given to JonBenet as part of a pageant package,
>>according to jameson. The excitement about it died when
>>that was learned.
>
>Not meaning to doubt Jams' word on this, but Tracy seems to
>feel differently, e.g.:
It's a matter of timing...jameson was after Tracey.
>
>What did Tracey mean when he said there is a strange,
>extremely interesting story connected to the bear that will
>"probably" emerge at some point?
>
>Jams' explanation does not qualify, imo, as being "extremely
>interesting". It appears Tracy has something else in mind.
>
>>And where, exactly, is it now? Nobody knows.
>
>Does this mean even LE does not know? It is more likely
>that LE has the Santa Bear, holding it in evidence.

LE had only a photograph, which was shown to Patsy. Patsy turned white, thinking it was strangely out of place. LE then put out an APB for the bear, searching the country for months. Why would they do that if they already had it?


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mBm
Member since 8-21-06
11-22-06, 06:03 PM (EST)
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4. "RE: The Santa Bear Found in JB's Bedroom"
In response to message #3
 
   LAST EDITED ON 11-22-06 AT 06:17 PM (EST)
 
>LE had only a photograph, which was shown to Patsy.
>Patsy turned white, thinking it was strangely out of place.
>LE then put out an APB for the bear, searching the country
>for months. Why would they do that if they already had
>it?

Sorry, but I didn't realize they only had a photograph.

If it has never turned up, then that is all the more reason to wonder about Tracey's comments.

Also,

>>>>The bear was given to JonBenet as part of a pageant package,
>>according to jameson. The excitement about it died when
>>that was learned.
>
>Not meaning to doubt Jams' word on this, but Tracy seems to
>feel differently, e.g.:
It's a matter of timing...jameson was after Tracey.

As for the matter of timing, I think Tracey felt (by his own words) that when he said, there is a strange, extremely interesting story connected to the bear, that there was exactly what he said, a strange, extremely interesting story connected to the Bear.

Jams' explanation that it was part of a pageant package does not fit this description, even though her explanation comes after Tracey's. Therefore the timing would be insignificant (imo).




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BraveHeart
Member since 5-8-02
11-22-06, 07:21 PM (EST)
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5. "RE: The Santa Bear Found in JB's Bedroom"
In response to message #4
 
   "Patsy turned white, thinking it was strangely out of place. LE then put out an APB for the bear"

If the bear was ordinary and on her bed, then why did Patsy turn white and why did it disapear off the bed?

Is it possible that the intruder took the bear with him as a souvenir and left a photograph of it? And that is why it was missing?

If Patsy or her sister had removed it when they were allowed back in the house it would not have taken months of looking for it.

It wasn't listed on the evidence list was it? Don't think so.


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mBm
Member since 8-21-06
11-22-06, 08:32 PM (EST)
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6. "RE: The Santa Bear Found in JB's Bedroom"
In response to message #5
 
   >
>If the bear was ordinary and on her bed, then why did Patsy
>turn white and why did it disapear off the bed?
>
>Is it possible that the intruder took the bear with him as a
>souvenir and left a photograph of it? And that is why it was
>missing?


Let's just think about these statements for a moment.

Consider that the Bear "disappeared" off the bed.

The intruder took the bear with him for a souvenir but did NOT leave a photograph of it.

Patsy's face turned white when she was shown the photograph, so obviously something aroused fear, interest, or some type of surprise in her.

OK. Then how did LE even know about the Santa Bear?

Does this mean the intruder did indeed leave a photograph of the Santa Bear?


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Evening2
Member since 7-7-03
11-22-06, 08:41 PM (EST)
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7. "RE: The Santa Bear Found in JB's Bedroom"
In response to message #5
 
   LAST EDITED ON 11-22-06 AT 08:42 PM (EST)
 
I believe the photo of the "spare" bed in JonBenet's bedroom, upon which the Santa Bear had been placed, was a crime scene photo. Sometime AFTER that photo was taken, the Santa Bear disappeared. Patsy had never seen that bear other than in that photo. She recalled JonBenet received a bear in an angel outfit at one of the recent pageants. It "seems" as though someone exchanged the angel oufit for the Santa Claus outfit. The Santa Claus outfit did not look like it came with the bear, IMO. It was older and a little ragged.


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BraveHeart
Member since 5-8-02
11-22-06, 09:14 PM (EST)
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8. "RE: The Santa Bear Found in JB's Bedroom"
In response to message #7
 
   From the transcripts:
"Atlanta 2000
"Between June of
5 1998 and our request for help in December of
6 1998 --
........
8 did your
9 recollection get jogged and you realized that
10 you did, in fact, own the bear?
11 A. No. I mean, it was still a bear
12 that I did not recognize.
13 Q. Have you since that time had
14 anything that has refreshed your recollection
15 in that regard so that you now presently
16 know the source of that bear?
17 A. No.
......
I have seen a videotape taken at a
21 pageant in December, in fact, December 14,
22 1996. I think that was -- was that the
23 last -- I believe that was the last pageant
24 that JonBenet participated in.
.......
13 Q. And in the videotape it shows the
14 prizes.
15 A. Uh-huh (affirmative).
16 Q. And that bear is in the videotape
17 with you in the videotape?
18 A. Oh, really?
.......
1 have seen videotape that shows what appears
2 to be that bear.
3 MR. WOOD: The question, though,
4 is are you representing it is that bear
5 because there is a difference, and I think
6 you understand it. I haven't seen the
7 videotape that you are referring to, but I
8 mean, you are saying it appears to be.
9 THE WITNESS: Yeah, I would like
10 to see that too because it was my
11 recollection that she won a bear, but it had
12 a little banner on it, and it was like a
13 little angel bear or something. It was all
14 white.
......
perhaps my observations are incorrect, just
18 assuming that, does that refresh your
19 recollection as to the origin of the Santa
20 Bear that we saw?
21 A. Well, this bear that I think she
22 was presented at that pageant did not have
23 Santa, Santa attire. It was a little angel
24 bear, which I have someplace.
.....
22 MS. HARMER: Whatever pageant she
23 was in on the 14th of December, and LaDonna
24 was involved in it, that is where the bear
25 came from.
150
1 THE WITNESS: Oh, okay.
2 MR. WOOD: According to?
3 THE WITNESS: LaDonna?
4 MS. HARMER: Yes.
....
8 MR. WOOD: The video shows a
9 Santa Bear.
10 MS. HARMER: Yes. The video is
11 taken at the same pageant where LaDonna
12 passed out these prizes, one of which was
13 the bear.
14 MR. WOOD: Again, I am just
15 trying to make sure, do you have a video of
16 JonBenet holding or receiving a Santa Bear or
17 are you saying that Santa bears were given
18 out to some of the people there?
19 MS. HARMER: The video shows the
20 Santa Bear on the table.
21 MR. WOOD: Well, the table, who
22 all is in the picture?
23 MR. KANE: Maybe I can clarify
24 it. LaDonna Graygo purchased the bear,
25 purchased the Santa Bear. It was the prize
151
1 to JonBenet, and she told us the prize that
2 JonBenet was awarded for winning little Ms.
3 Christmas. That was the prize and it was
4 the only bears that she had, and she got it
5 from someplace in Nebraska, a mail order
6 company. I can't remember the name.
7 THE WITNESS: Okay.
8 Q. (By Mr. Kane) Did you look at
9 the bear when it was found by -- what is
10 her name?
11 A. Gene.
12 Q. Gene, or his?
13 MR. LEVIN: Mr. Matthews.
14 THE WITNESS: Uh-huh
15 (affirmative).
16 Q. (By Mr. Kane) You looked at it
17 before it was shipped off to Colorado?
18 A. Yes.
19 Q. And that didn't ring any bell
20 with you?
21 A. Uh-uh (negative).
22 Q. But you remember getting -- she
23 won a bear at that pageant?
24 A. I thought it was the little white
25 angel bear, but maybe it was, maybe she got
152
1 that some other time.
2 Q. (By Mr. Levin) If I understand
3 you correctly, Mrs. Ramsey, you do recall, my
4 sense is, and if I am wrong, tell me, you
5 do recall with some degree of certainty she
6 won a bear at that pageant, her last
7 pageant?
8 A. Yes.
9 Q. And then what I am understanding
10 you to say is, what you are not certain of
11 is the type of bear?
12 MR. WOOD: No, she is not saying
13 she is not certain. She is saying I thought
14 it was the little white angel bear, but
15 maybe she got that some other time.
16 Q. (By Mr. Levin) And I took that
17 to mean that you are not certain that it was
18 the angel bear --
19 A. Or the Santa Bear.
20 Q. -- or the Santa Bear?
21 A. Right.
22 Q. So if I understand you correctly,
23 you are saying that you don't have an
24 independent memory today to state emphatically
25 she didn't win the Santa Bear?
153
1 A. Right.
2 Q. Did you, when you directed Mr.
3 Matthews where to look for the bear, that
4 is, in the box of things from JonBenet, did
5 you know that that bear had been taken out
6 of the house with your other property? I
7 suppose what I am getting at is, had you
8 been able to go through all of the things
9 that were removed from the Boulder house --
10 A. No.
11 Q. -- prior to December of '98?
12 A. No.
13 Q. Did you go through any of the
14 property at all, if you recall?
15 A. No.
......"


From a news article:

Ex-detective: Girl's aunt took evidence
By Marilyn Robinson
Denver Post Staff Writer
Feb. 17 - Breaking his long-standing silence, a former Boulder detective Tuesday accused JonBenet Ramsey's aunt of taking potential evidence from the Ramsey home the day after the girl was found dead....
Not so, said Pam Paugh, Patsy Ramsey's sister, speaking from her Georgia home on Tuesday.

"First of all, he wasn't there. Second of all, I went in with a listing of things,'' Paugh said, referring to a list of items she wanted to retrieve. "Every place I went, there was a detective. He was with me. He never left my side. He inspected everything. He selected the bags. He packed everything. I didn't pack anything.''

Paugh said she took clothing, pictures of JonBenet, and some stuffed animals and dolls. She also took a medal JonBenet had won in a talent contest and some beauty pageant banners.

But she didn't take a teddy bear, dressed like Santa Claus, sitting on a bed in JonBenet's room, Paugh said. The district attorney's office last month launched a search for the manufacturer and the retail outlets that sold similar bears.

"...didn't take a teddy bear, dressed like Santa Claus, sitting on a bed in JonBenet's room, Paugh said. The district attorney's office last month launched a search for the manufacturer and the retail outlets that sold similar bears."

"I saw the teddy bear on the bed,'' that day she retrieved the items, Paugh said. "I hadn't seen it before. But I didn't touch it, and I didn't take it.''

So, the bear was on the bed after the crime, the pageant prize lady thought it was the one she bought and gave JB, Pam Paugh saw the bear on the bed but did not take it, and the keystone cops either did not take the bear in as evidence or they lost it and Steve Thomas thought and accused Pam Paugh of taking it. If Pam did not take it, and BDP did not take it either, who did? Is this the mystery that Tracey is refering to?

Not sure I would take the pageant prize lady's word for this either.



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mBm
Member since 8-21-06
11-22-06, 09:28 PM (EST)
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9. "RE: The Santa Bear Found in JB's Bedroom"
In response to message #7
 
   >I believe the photo of the "spare" bed in JonBenet's
>bedroom, upon which the Santa Bear had been placed, was a
>crime scene photo. Sometime AFTER that photo was taken, the
>Santa Bear disappeared.
Patsy had never seen that bear
>other than in that photo. She recalled JonBenet received a
>bear in an angel outfit at one of the recent pageants. It
>"seems" as though someone exchanged the angel oufit for the
>Santa Claus outfit.
The Santa Claus outfit did not look
>like it came with the bear, IMO. It was older and a little
>ragged.

The parts I have highlighted seem to be very strange. Who would have had access to the Bear after LE had arrived and had taken crime scene photos. (It disappeared AFTER the crime scene photos were made.)

Also, If someone exchanged the two outfits, they would have known about the Santa Bear (known the size, etc.)

But, maybe instead of exchanging the outfits, maybe the bears--complete with outfits--were exchanged.

But how? when?

All this makes Tracey's comments about the story behind the Santa Bear being very strange and interesting even more curious.


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Evening2
Member since 7-7-03
11-22-06, 09:35 PM (EST)
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10. "RE: The Santa Bear Found in JB's Bedroom"
In response to message #9
 
   LAST EDITED ON 11-24-06 AT 10:58 AM (EST)
 
I don't think (although I do not know) that the Ramsey house was kept under guard after the crime. Yes, it was a crime scene and the forensics teams were working there (but not 24/7), so I'm sure whoever was able to enter the home on the 25th would have been just as able to enter it AFTER the 26th.


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BraveHeart
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11-22-06, 10:20 PM (EST)
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11. "RE: The Santa Bear Found in JB's Bedroom"
In response to message #10
 
   and after Pam Paugh saw it also.


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Evening2
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11-22-06, 10:29 PM (EST)
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12. "RE: The Santa Bear Found in JB's Bedroom"
In response to message #11
 
   BH, do you recall which date Pam went to the house, escorted by LE, to get some items for Patsy and John? That would have been the day she saw the bear.


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Mame
Member since 8-20-06
11-22-06, 10:46 PM (EST)
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13. "RE: The Santa Bear Found in JB's Bedroom"
In response to message #12
 
   I think mBm makes a good point about the Santa bear. The bear was brought up again in the Karr affidavits. While we know the DA's office was unaware of several pieces of evidence already released to the public I have a hard time believing they do not know the source of the bear. It was the DA's office and Alex Hunter who put out the initial APB on the bear...Lacy was a member of that office at the time.

I'd sure like to get to the bottom of the Santa Bear.


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Evening2
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11-22-06, 10:49 PM (EST)
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14. "RE: The Santa Bear Found in JB's Bedroom"
In response to message #13
 
   <I'd sure like to get to the bottom of the Santa Bear.


Boy do I agree with that statement, Mame, you and a whole bunch of us.


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Mame
Member since 8-20-06
11-23-06, 01:22 AM (EST)
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15. "RE: The Santa Bear Found in JB's Bedroom"
In response to message #14
 
   LAST EDITED ON 11-23-06 AT 01:23 AM (EST)
 
Miss Marple shared this recent article that states a source claims the bear was sourced. I think we all know this story that the bear was a gift from a recent pageant.

http://tinyurl.com/odpyk

My concern is if that's really the case why did it show up in the affidavits in the Karr arrest? Maybe the DA's office is really that clueless on the evidence...even the evidence they were directly involved in years ago when Hunter sent out his media plea. Also, I remember the bear being described as old and roughed up. Is that the case? I could well be wrong on that.

If the bear was sourced then I'm personally very wary of the expertise in the Boulder DA's office.


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mBm
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11-23-06, 02:45 AM (EST)
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16. "RE: The Santa Bear Found in JB's Bedroom"
In response to message #15
 
   >Miss Marple shared this recent article that states a source
>claims the bear was sourced. I think we all know this story
>that the bear was a gift from a recent pageant.

IMO, the "source" of the Bear, being a present from JB's last pageant, is not completely accurate. It's my understanding that the pageant bear was not a Santa Bear (according to Patsy). Am I wrong about this? Is this why there has been some speculation that the bear had been redressed?

>My concern is if that's really the case why did it show up
>in the affidavits in the Karr arrest? Maybe the DA's office
>is really that clueless on the evidence...even the evidence
>they were directly involved in years ago when Hunter sent
>out his media plea. Also, I remember the bear being
>described as old and roughed up.
Is that the case? I could
>well be wrong on that.

It's not likely that a pageant gift, only two weeks old, could be old and roughed up (if Mame is correct about this).

>If the bear was sourced then I'm personally very wary of the
>expertise in the Boulder DA's office.

I would doubt the authenticity of the source rather than the expertise in the Boulder DA's office.

In February 1999, Boulder police investigators acknowledged that they had never seized it as evidence, and the Ramseys said that they didn't have it.

So, what happened to it?


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BraveHeart
Member since 5-8-02
11-24-06, 04:19 AM (EST)
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17. "RE: timeline"
In response to message #16
 
   In "Death of Innocence":

Ramseys stayed at the fernie's house for three days-Friday, Saturday and Sunday, from the 26th. to 27th, one day, then the 28th. and 29th. when they left for Atlanta.

They realized at the Fernie's that they needed some clothes so they began to get permission for Pam to enter the house, supervised by BPD.

They stated that on the 28th. they had no clothes to wear and a Department store sent over some clothes for them. By the time of the burial service at Atlanta, they stated that Pam had attempted to bring them "sister socks", the stuffed cat toy but got the wrong one. That means that she had gone into the house later on the 28th. or the 29th, which is probably more likely. However,and this is interesting, Pricilla white did bring Patsy the "sister socks" cat doll at the funeral. Somehow,Patsy says, Priscilla managed to get into the house to fetch it managed to get into the house to fetch it managed to get into the house to fetch it.


I would like to know more about that trip.


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Mikiemoderator
Member since 5-8-02
11-24-06, 10:49 AM (EST)
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18. "RE: timeline"
In response to message #17
 
   I saw an article (a few days ago) that said Pam Paugh noticed the bear there when she was there on the 28th, but did not take it with her.

Later Pam said there was a prophetic note in the pouch.

I did not know Priscilla might have gone into the home too. Maybe she took the bear? Who has the bear? McReynolds? Whites?

And what happened to everything else in the home after they left? Did they eventually move everything to Atlanta?

Sorry, just questions, no answers.