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BIZ
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11-29-06, 06:27 PM (EST)
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"Shall Be The Conqueror"
 
   Something I thought of today which gives a little credibility to Karr as being involved is the "Shall Be The Conqueror" slogan he used in high school for letters to his girlfriend and when signing yearbooks.
Everyone has tried for years to find out what SBTC stands for. Some have said "Saved By The Cross" or "Subic Bay Training Center"
However, do you realize that "Shall Be The Conqueror" is the only thing that I have heard that goes with "Victory!" It fits PERFECTLY.
I'm not saying let's all point at Karr as the perpetrator, but it really bothers me that there are aspects about him that FIT. It also bothers me that his very young wife claimed he drugged and strangled her. That part also FITS very well.
Whoever did this is a very strange person (as John Ramsey said on 48 hours) and that is what makes the case so intriguing and unusual....finding someone who fits all of these strange and unprecedented criterias. Something to think about!


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  Subject     Author     Message Date     ID  
  RE: Shall Be The Conqueror mBm 11-29-06 1
     RE: Shall Be The Conqueror DonBradley 12-01-06 2
         RE: Shall Be The Conqueror Evening2 12-01-06 3
             RE: Shall Be The Conqueror DonBradley 12-01-06 4
                 Found it !!! DonBradley 12-01-06 5
                     RE: Found it !!! mBm 12-01-06 6
                         RE: Found it !!! DonBradley 12-01-06 7
                             RE: Found it !!! Mikiemoderator 12-21-06 8
                                 RE: Found it !!! Ashley 12-21-06 9
                                     RE: Found it !!! mBm 12-21-06 10
                                         RE: Found, or lost? BraveHeart 12-21-06 11
                                 RE: Found it !!! BIZ 12-22-06 12
                                 RE: Found it !!! BIZ 12-22-06 13
                                     RE: Found it !!! DonBradley 12-22-06 14
                                         RE: Accident or Planned Murder BIZ 12-24-06 15
                                             RE: Accident or Planned Murder DonBradley 12-24-06 16
                                             RE: Don's Post #5 Evening2 12-24-06 17
                                             RE: Don's Post #5 mBm 12-25-06 18

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mBm
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11-29-06, 09:30 PM (EST)
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1. "RE: Shall Be The Conqueror"
In response to message #0
 
   LAST EDITED ON 11-29-06 AT 09:35 PM (EST)
 
>Something I thought of today which gives a little
>credibility to Karr as being involved is the "Shall Be The
>Conqueror" slogan he used in high school for letters to his
>girlfriend and when signing yearbooks.
>Everyone has tried for years to find out what SBTC stands
>for. Some have said "Saved By The Cross" or "Subic Bay
>Training Center"
>However, do you realize that "Shall Be The Conqueror" is the
>only thing that I have heard that goes with "Victory!" It
>fits PERFECTLY.
>I'm not saying let's all point at Karr as the perpetrator,
>but it really bothers me that there are aspects about him
>that FIT. It also bothers me that his very young wife
>claimed he drugged and strangled her. That part also FITS
>very well.
>Whoever did this is a very strange person (as John Ramsey
>said on 48 hours) and that is what makes the case so
>intriguing and unusual....finding someone who fits all of
>these strange and unprecedented criterias. Something to
>think about!~Biz

I agree. There are quite a few things about Karr that bother me. His tendency to write long messages in yearbooks, his prolific use of exclamation points, the similarity of his handwriting, his second wife getting a restraining order against him (probably to keep him away from the children), his remark that he knew how to erase hard drives...there's just a whole lot of things we know about him. What about the things we DON'T KNOW about him?


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DonBradley
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12-01-06, 06:50 AM (EST)
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2. "RE: Shall Be The Conqueror"
In response to message #1
 
   There was never any sort of Subic Bay Training Command but it became a candidate equivalent to Santa Barbara Tennis Club. Now in a certain sense, all Navy personnel want victory and certainly everyone playing tennis wants victory but I don't really see much of a link between tennis and 'victory'.

It is, however, true that "I shall be the Conqueror" and "Victory" are less dis-jointed. Now how does this affect us? Is it preferable to the driving directions from the McReynolds former residence in Boulder to the Ramsey home? Yes. Those directions would be SBTC but the word 'victory' seems unrelated. Now is this "interesting"? Yes!! Is it significant? Well, I sure don't think it changes his ex-wife's degree of certainty about his whereabouts.

I would wonder what computer could march through some suspects background scribblings and come up with an SBTC and also come up with an SBTC that was somewhat closely allied with the word victory.
Would McReynold's articles be fertile ground? Fleet White's royalty reports? Gary Oliva's rambling tapes about macaroon interviews? Some babbling idiot in a bakery who is interviewing a macaroon could well be uttering something that would fit the "sbtc" and "victory" goals.

Okay. Enough. I agree. Everytime I type "Kreepy" in reference to Karr it is an affirmation that the guy is a demented two-faced pervert, but it doesn't change his geographical whereabouts in December of 1996. As it turns out, Karr would have dearly loved to have been somewhere in Colorado then but he wasn't. No matter how closely linked his yearbook scribblings are to the word 'victory'.


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Evening2
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12-01-06, 10:00 AM (EST)
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3. "RE: Shall Be The Conqueror"
In response to message #2
 
   "Is it preferable to the driving directions from the McReynolds former residence in Boulder to the Ramsey home? Yes. Those directions would be SBTC but the word 'victory' seems unrelated." ~ DonBradley

Don, please tell me more about the McReynolds' driving directions.


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DonBradley
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12-01-06, 10:50 AM (EST)
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4. "RE: Shall Be The Conqueror"
In response to message #3
 
   >Don, please tell me more about the McReynolds' driving directions.
Oh, someone asked me about that yesterday morning in an email and that is why it was relatively fresh in my mind but still very unclear. I know I had posted earlier on this as an aside in one of the many SBTC related threads, I think or perhaps in one of the 'Commencement' threads.

The former address of the McReynolds home in Boulder is just a tad bit under three miles from the former Ramsey home (and crime scene).
The two houses are ofcourse also separated by time as well as by distance.

If you go to any source such as Google maps or a printed atlas or any similar source and look at the two locations and look at the various street names you will see that had someone ever simply walked up to a person on the street and asked for directions or pulled over to the curb and asked for directions from a passerby, the most likely route to get from the McReynolds home to the Ramsey home would be to drive South on Broadway Towards some street whose name I now fail to remember but recall began with the letter "C". This obviously would give us yet another example of "SBTC" and also give us yet another example of a tenuous relationship to the McReynolds.

My initial reason for the original post was to show how easy it is to come up with something that sounds very plausible and does have some tenuous relationships but is simply the result of our desperate search for meaning in this case.


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DonBradley
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12-01-06, 11:17 AM (EST)
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5. "Found it !!!"
In response to message #4
 
   I found this in an email I had sent to a fellow poster:

".........Note: To get from the McReynolds former residence in Boulder to the Ramsey home you would be advised to go South on Broadway Towards Cashman. SBTC? Nah! Coincidence! ......"

South on Broadway Towards Cashman.


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mBm
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12-01-06, 02:26 PM (EST)
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6. "RE: Found it !!!"
In response to message #5
 
   >I found this in an email I had sent to a fellow poster:
>
>".........Note: To get from the McReynolds former residence
>in Boulder to the Ramsey home you would be advised to go
>South on Broadway Towards Cashman. SBTC? Nah! Coincidence!
>......"
>
>South on Broadway Towards
>Cashman.


And, "Victory!", I found it! ??


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DonBradley
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12-01-06, 02:51 PM (EST)
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7. "RE: Found it !!!"
In response to message #6
 
   >>South on Broadway Towards Cashman.
>>
>And, "Victory!", I found it! ??

No.
>Is it preferable to the driving directions from the McReynolds
>former residence in Boulder to the Ramsey home? Yes.
>Those directions would be SBTC but the word 'victory' seems unrelated.

I admit the SBTC on its own is less potent than the linkage of SBTC and the word 'victory'. Conqueror and Victory provide a certain thematic consistency that makes it appealing.


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Mikiemoderator
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12-21-06, 03:10 PM (EST)
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8. "RE: Found it !!!"
In response to message #7
 
   LAST EDITED ON 12-21-06 AT 03:11 PM (EST)
 
http://www.rockymountainnews.com/drmn/local/article/0,1299,DRMN_15_4929003,00.html

"Sometimes, so blurred by my own eyes, I've seen the best things come and go simultaneously; Though deep in the future, maybe I shall be the conquerer (sic) and live in multiple peace."

Frankly, I have difficulty seeing how this ("...shall be the conqueror...") fits the S.B.T.C. signature. There really is no "Victory" nor is there a "Conqueror" in the murder of a six year old girl, other than the sexual experience. JMK never said anything about the ransom note. He never said anything about the others holding JonBenet, nor about the victory nor the SBTC signature of the note, nor of the foreign faction. He cared only about the sexual experience, and the "accidental" death of the subject of his obsession.


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Ashley
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12-21-06, 06:22 PM (EST)
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9. "RE: Found it !!!"
In response to message #8
 
   I agree Mikie, but how could this possibly be an accidental death? It was slow and deliberate until the very end when he hit her or smashed her head onto the concrete. I've always thought that may be what he did as a final blow. He was enraged at whoever. John, JOnBenet, not sure which one. Most probably John.

She Beat The Cancer, Victory (mocking them) or, Someone Beneath The City (hence the movie Ransom)Saved Boulder This Christmas. Or maybe even, Santa Banned The Club. Lots of things would fit with Victory, imo

Santa said he was part of the club after he got the scarf, which he didn't seem to pleased about.


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mBm
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12-21-06, 08:16 PM (EST)
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10. "RE: Found it !!!"
In response to message #9
 
   >Santa said he was part of the club after he got the scarf,
>which he didn't seem to pleased about.

I think Santa thought the Ramseys were cheap. His remark on the Rivera Live Show, "and this from a very wealthy family"...referring to the $2 bottle of glitter, in addition (in my mind) that for them to pay him a mere $25-30 for his performances as their Santa, really set off his disgust at their values. He made such a big issue about the $2 bottle of sparkle...it was just unbelieveable!

He probably thought the scarf was cheap, too.


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BraveHeart
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12-21-06, 09:28 PM (EST)
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11. "RE: Found, or lost?"
In response to message #10
 
   LAST EDITED ON 12-21-06 AT 09:31 PM (EST)
 
"Perhaps in the future I shall be the conqueror and live in multiple peace" is not nearly the same as "S.B.T.C". Karr's first wife says she is sure he used to sign off in his letters with the acronym "S.B.T.C.", but can not find any examples to prove it. The assumption here is that "Shall Be The Conqueror" became his "mantra" so to say, a short version of the total phrase quoted above, in the years immediately following HS and the "SBTC" sign off had become so characteristic of him that he just couldn't help himself when it came time to sign off on the RN. Thus "Perhaps in the future I shall be the conqueror and live in multiple peace" becomes "S.B.T.C", the acronym of a phrase so unrelated to the context of the RN and yet so characteristic (but as yet unsubstantiated) of him.

Assuming this phrase has something to do with some on-going esoteric philosophy of Karr's, how does that relate to what preceeds it in the RN as Mikie asks? In other words, how does it relate to a pre-accidental killing kidnapping fantasy (also assuming Karr wrote it) or a post accidental killing coverup?

This shall be the mother of all explanations.


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BIZ
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12-22-06, 06:15 AM (EST)
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12. "RE: Found it !!!"
In response to message #8
 
   >http://www.rockymountainnews.com/drmn/local/article/0,1299,DRMN_15_4929003,00.html
>
>
DOES ANYONE HAVE A BLOW UP OF THIS YEARBOOK PAGE? It's hard to read. I have always wanted to see that page.


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BIZ
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12-22-06, 06:30 AM (EST)
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13. "RE: Found it !!!"
In response to message #8
 
   >Frankly, I have difficulty seeing how this ("...shall be
>the conqueror...") fits the S.B.T.C. signature. There
>really is no "Victory" nor is there a "Conqueror" in the
>murder of a six year old girl, other than the sexual
>experience. JMK never said anything about the ransom note.
>He never said anything about the others holding JonBenet,
>nor about the victory nor the SBTC signature of the note,
>nor of the foreign faction. He cared only about the sexual
>experience, and the "accidental" death of the subject of his
>obsession.

I respectfully disagree. This very well could have been an accident. Say that the perpetrator genuinely wanted to kidnap Jonbenet and keep her for his own sexual fantasy. But she was a fiesty child and when she woke up and realized that a stranger had her in the basement, she screamed bloody murder and scratched at him to get away. Fearing she would awaken the parents and neighbors, he had no choice but to stun gun her and bop her on the head to silence her. These weapons were to be used as self defense if he were confronted and not part of a murder plan.
As for JMK not saying anything about the RN, remember it took him many many years of coorespondence to reveal bits of info to Michael Tracy. He chooses to divulge his info slowly and use it as a pawn. The fact that he signed off as SBTC in his teenage years, is very significant to me. This signature is the only one that makes any sense to me. He conquered the fantasy of attempting to abduct a little beauty queen and it was a "Victory!" because he didn't intend to kill her when he wrote the note, it was done after the note was left because he had no choice. I think "Shall be the Conquerer" is the only mentioned signature that goes well with "Victory!".


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DonBradley
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12-22-06, 09:20 AM (EST)
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14. "RE: Found it !!!"
In response to message #13
 
   >Say that the perpetrator genuinely wanted to
>kidnap Jonbenet and keep her for his own sexual fantasy.
...
>Fearing she would awaken the parents and neighbors, he had no
>choice but to stun gun her and bop her on the head to silence her.

I still see so little evidence of this and a great deal that indicates the contrary.
Particularly the time taken to conceal the body rather than flee in fear of the screams having already alerted someone.


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BIZ
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12-24-06, 01:41 PM (EST)
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15. "RE: Accident or Planned Murder"
In response to message #14
 
   LAST EDITED ON 12-24-06 AT 10:00 PM (EST)
 
>I still see so little evidence of this and a great deal that
>indicates the contrary.
>Particularly the time taken to conceal the body rather than
>flee in fear of the screams having already alerted someone.
My feeling is that this person had entered and felt comfortable hiding in homes before. This person has lots of patience and has no fear of being in homes when the owners arrive. He can hide for a long time. He realized that as the night got later, he was less likely to be noticed as he left. He hid until the coast was clear, which left him plenty of time to arrange the body and wrap her in a blanket. I think he was already in the basement with her when she screamed. I think he planned to take her with him but when she screamed, he paniced. Fearing being caught he hit her on the head to silence her. He waited to be sure that he wouldn't be noticed as he left and then snuck out of the house when he was sure that everyone was fast asleep.
That's JMO.


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DonBradley
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12-24-06, 02:15 PM (EST)
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16. "RE: Accident or Planned Murder"
In response to message #15
 
   There is absolutely no way to prove that the intruder did not panic at the sound of a scream, however I simply think it is unlikely to have happened.

First, consider the stun gun: It was apparently applied twice. I have no way to imagine a stun gun being used in the basement in any sort of scenario other than which the killer does this for his pleasure. Part of the pleasure is the whimpering and screaming that accompanies the return of musculature control.


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Evening2
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12-24-06, 11:13 PM (EST)
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17. "RE: Don's Post #5"
In response to message #16
 
   5. "Found it !!!"
In response to message #4

"I found this in an email I had sent to a fellow poster:
".........Note: To get from the McReynolds former residence in Boulder to the Ramsey home you would be advised to go South on Broadway Towards Cashman. SBTC? Nah! Coincidence! ......"

South on Broadway Towards Cashman."


Don, I think that should be "South on Broadway Towards Cascade".

Isn't Cascade also the street on which John Ramsey saw the small white hatchback vehicle resembling the white Honda Civic owned by the McReynolds during the early morning hours of December 26th?


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mBm
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12-25-06, 01:48 AM (EST)
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18. "RE: Don's Post #5"
In response to message #17
 
   I believe it was Cascade. They lived on 15th between Baseline and Cascade, so it must have been Cascade since I'm certain it was not Baseline.


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