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  Retired FBI John Douglas
Posted by: jameson245 - 11-30-2019, 02:14 AM - Forum: FBI involvement - Replies (25)

                    John Douglas Interview on Time & Again in January 1997
                 Jane Pauley:
                 JP: Former FBI agent with a reputation for Profiling - NBC's Cris
                 Hanson talked to him for Dateline in Jan ‘97 just over a month after
                 JonBenet's death.

                 John Douglas
                 JD: I've sat down across the table from some of the country's greatest
                 liars, in the world really, and I can sense it. Things just did not fit, the
                 crime scene - data -- just doesn't fit.

                 Cris Hanson
                 CH: Douglas was hired by Ramsey Attorneys and CH asks why they
                 hired him.

                 JD: They hired me to do an independent analysis in hopes of
                 determining who was responsible for the death of the daughter. And I
                 said, I will give you an independent analysis but you may not like what I
                 have to say.

                 CH: And that's because when he arrived here in Boulder, he
                 immediately suspected the Ramseys. Douglas was limited by authorities
                 on what evidence he could see but he was allowed in the house. He
                 was briefed on the autopsy report and he saw a photo copy of the so
                 called ransom note. Most importantly, he was given access to the
                 Ramseys. His experience told him, look very closely at the parent. His
                 25 years of groundbreaking profiling research for the FBI led to
                 important breaks in dozens of major cases. He had studied and
                 interviewed scores of serial killers. He accurately profiled the
                 unibomber years ago. And he was the inspiration for character Jack
                 Crawford in the film, ‘Silence of the Lambs'. Although the BPD is
                 releasing no information about the investigation, Douglas says it was
                 clear to him that the Ramseys were the chief suspects when he arrived.
                 For Douglas it was critically important to interview the parents.

                 How much time did you spend talking to Mr. & Mrs. Ramsey?
                 JD: About 4 or 5 hours.
                 CH - For Douglas that interview two weeks after JonBenet was found
                 murdered would be crucial in forming his opinions. To Douglas,
                 whoever committed the crime had to have intimate knowledge with the
                 Ramseys million dollar home.

                 JD: What struck me as very unusual was the bedrooms - The mothers
                 and fathers bedrooms were so far away on the third floor. Even if you
                 weren't a sound sleeper, you'd have difficulty hearing any noise on the
                 second floor because it was so far removed.

                 CH: They told Douglas they all went to bed early Christmas night
                 because they were planning to fly to their other home in Michigan the
                 next morning.

                 JD: Mr. Ramsey gets up, takes a shower. The mother gets up, goes
                 downstairs to make some coffee - goes down the spiral staircase and
                 the last step is three pages of the letter - starts reading it - doesn't know
                 what it is - then she starts screaming. Mr. Ramsey comes down and it's
                 instructions like don't contact the FBI, don't contact the police.

                 CH: But the police were called. They search the house but don't check
                 a small basement room. Hours later, a distraught John Ramsey goes to
                 the basement and discovers his daughters body.

                 JD: Everyone hears upstairs, ‘Oh God My Baby'. He grabs the child,
                 removes the duct tape, carries the child upstairs and

                 tries to resuscitate the child.
                 CH: The crime scene and JonBenet's body were now contaminated
                 because of the family's desperate efforts to help the little girl. But
                 Douglas says the parents story contain important clues.

                 JD: If a parent kills a child, they don't want to be the ones to find the
                 child. If they do a search say, in the residence, they'll get someone else
                 like ‘OK Frank you check this room, I'll be over here checking the
                 other room. The other thing you look at is how the child is left. When
                 parents kill, they usually place the child with a very very peaceful type
                 of look to it - A staged crime scene.

                 CH: Douglas says JonBenet was brutalized - she had duct tape on her
                 mouth, she suffered severe head wounds and she was strangled and
                 sexually assaulted. Douglas says the interview with the parents which
                 lasted more than four hours was what ultimately turned him around.

                 JD: I'm looking at this man, Mr. Ramsey and if you did it, you're one
                 hell of a liar. You are one hell of a liar. If he did it, he put on a great
                 production here but I just don't believe in my heart he did this. And not
                 just from what's in my heart but from the analysis of the scene.

                 CH: But, you're being paid by the Ramseys.
                 JD: Right - You can pay me for my time, you're not going to pay for my
                 opinion or jeopardize my reputation.

                 CH: Are you convinced based upon your experience that the parents
                 were not involved with the murder of JonBenet Ramsey?

                 JD: What I've seen and experienced I'd say they were not involved.
                 CH: The so-called ransom note that was left at the Ramseys home
                 demands $118,000 and we now know that a $118,000 is the amount
                 of the bonus JR was expecting that year. What does that say to you?
                 Who has this knowledge?

                 JD: The wife didn't have the knowledge, she doesn't know anything
                 about that. It's money that's electronically placed in his 401K at the end
                 of the year so to me it's kind of like the manifesto of the unibomber. If
                 you knew more about the person who's responsible - this person has a
                 very unique intimate knowledge about his financial workings therefore
                 the person would have to be somehow related to his employment.

                 CH: But Douglas remains focused on a piece of evidence that continues
                 to haunt him, the three page ransom note apparently left by the killer.

                 JD: Again, I am very prejudice by the amount of money, $118,000. Is
                 that just luck that they picked that amount, I don't think so.

                 Jane Pauley: John Douglas came to believe the Ramseys were not
                 responsible for JonBenet's death. But neither he nor anyone else has
                 ever identified any other credible suspect.

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  Paul Sherer sued AG - smoker
Posted by: jameson245 - 11-21-2019, 03:25 PM - Forum: Names to remember - Replies (2)

February 11, 1994
BYLINE: Rocky Mountain News staff

METRO NEWS BRIEFING BOULDER Smoker sues Boulder firm

A Lakewood man who claims he was fired from his job because he smokes is suing a Boulder company for violation of Colorado's so-called Smoker's Rights Law. Paul Sherer is suing Access Graphics Inc., claiming the Boulder company fired him after he was seen smoking on the Pearl Street Mall during his lunch hour. Sherer, who has smoked since age 18, was hired by Access Graphics on May 17 as a financial service area manager. Access Graphics, which distributes high-end computer work stations and computer peripherals, would not comment on the lawsuit, but a spokesman said the company won't hire smokers in order to control health-insurance costs.

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  MILK on the pineapple?
Posted by: jameson245 - 11-16-2019, 07:57 AM - Forum: Pineapple or Fruit Cocktail? - Replies (1)

The Ramseys told me they NEVER put milk on pineapple One looked kind of shocked and asked me, "Who would do that?"
Later I wondered if maybe the white in the bowl was melted ice cream, but admit I never asked the family about that possibility.
The other thought I had is that the white is mold - that bowl was out for a while nefore it was photographed.
Since the pineapple was not in her stomach but beyond that< I don't see it as being important at all to the murder investigation so I don't tend to dwell on it. Still, just for the record, none of the Ramseys put milk on pineapple.

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  $100,000 put up by Ramseys
Posted by: jameson245 - 11-09-2019, 10:20 AM - Forum: Reward offered until 12/31/2017 - No Replies

    This reward was offered early on and still remained unclaimed in 2019

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  In senate questionaire
Posted by: jameson245 - 11-09-2019, 10:18 AM - Forum: Judge Carnes Decision in Wolf Lawsuit - No Replies

10. Wolfv. Ramsey, Case No. 1:00-cv-1187-JEC, 253 F. Supp. 2d 1323 (N.D. Ga. 2003).

This was a civil case arising out of the widely-publicized and unsolved murder of six-year old JonBenet Ramsey, whose body was found in the basement of her parent's home in Boulder, Colorado. The plaintiff, Mr. Wolf, sued the Ramsey parents based on allegedly defamatory statements that they had made indicating their belief that he should be considered a suspect. The plaintiff contended that the Ramseys necessarily knew that he should not be a suspect because they knew that they had murdered their own child or, at least, knew that someone, other than the plaintiff, was responsible for the murder. I granted summary judgment for the Ramseys as the material evidence presented by them, and not disputed by the plaintiff, could not, as a matter of law, give rise to an inference that they had killed their child. My decision was based only on the civil record before me, which did not include the police investigative reports. The plaintiff had made little to no effort to adduce any facts in support of his contentions and my Order did not profess to answer definitively the question of who had murdered the child.

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  DNA and plea bargains
Posted by: jameson245 - 11-08-2019, 08:38 PM - Forum: DNA - more technical discussions - No Replies


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  Quinn Hasley
Posted by: jameson245 - 10-30-2019, 08:04 PM - Forum: Ramsey family FRIENDS - Replies (1)

Quinn Podcast Interview (part 1)
[Image: renderTimingPixel.png]

The first 19:30 of this episode for those who can't listen or prefer to read:
Hello, and welcome back to DIE-ALOGUE: a true crime conversation. I’m your host, Rebekah Sebastian and today I am speaking with Quinn. Quinn is a childhood friend of JonBenet Ramsey, and in listening back to our conversation I have to tell you that this is exactly the kind of dialogue I imagined having when I imagined starting this podcast. I just love her candor and vulnerability and we just talked all about the things that mean so much to me and that I wonder about and I have some very in real-time conclusions and thoughts and responses to the things that she shares, and it was just a great conversation, and the fact that it was hovering around the case of JonBenet Ramsey sort of just made it icing on the cake if you ask me. So I feel extremely honored to have had this conversation and I want to thank Quinn very specifically for choosing to sit down with me and share her story and thereby share it with you. So, please enjoy this episode of DIE-ALOGUE: a true crime conversation.
REBEKAH: Quinn, welcome to DIE-ALOGUE: a true crime conversation. Thank you so much for sitting down with me today.
QUINN: Thank you so much for having me.
R: Yeah of course. I was really glad to get your message, like all good things it started on Instagram.
Q: Always, always - sliding in peoples’ DMs.
R: Yes, oh my gosh I’m like the queen of that so I appreciated it and I particularly loved that you were pitching this idea of maybe you talking on DIALOGUE because you are connected to, I think your words were, ‘a semi-popular cold case.”
Q: I think I downplayed it a little.

R: Yeah, which was good. I mean you know, the intrigue was there so I wrote back and I said, ‘just curious, which case is it?’ and you can tell us what you replied.
Q: I replied, ‘It’s the JonBenet Ramsey case.’
R: Right, I’m like I think I’ve heard of that one, say more.
Q: Yeah, people have.
R: So this is kind of exactly up my alley in terms of exploring true crime and the genre itself. There sort of is no case that embodies true crime, in a weird way the way - I would say it’s one of maybe five or ten that everybody can reference.
Q: Every kind of like true crime podcasts, books I feel like everybody’s covered this case.
R: Everybody’s covered it. And everybody knows it. She is a household name. The case is a household case. So your perspective is that of a childhood friend. So maybe we could start there, in Colorado I assume.
Q: Yes, in Colorado.
R: So, you’re from Boulder, and do you want to tell us how you came to know the Ramseys? Was it your whole family or was it just you and JonBenet through school, or, how did that come about?
Q: So, JonBenet and I went to the same preschool in Boulder, which was, it was a preschool that was housed in the church that both of our families went to - ? Prebyterian, in Boulder. So I met her, I guess I was like, three or four, in preschool. So originally it was really just, me knowing her because it was just us being in preschool together. After a while, I would say that of anybody in my family knowing anybody else closely, it would be my mom knowing Patsy. Just because they’re both moms and they’re doing playdates and stuff together so that would probably be the other family member that talked to anybody who was really in the family.
R: So, what are your first memories of her as your friend?
Q: I would say something that I always found really interesting about her, it’s a weird, distinct memory that I have is, and everybody knows that her family was fairly well off, that’s like always part of the story that I think comes up when people are discussing it - and I remember it’s just kind of getting that vibe from her family. Like, she had nicer things than some of the other kids and I remember as a kid bringing it up to her when I first met her and her being like, ‘oh, I don’t like to talk about that.’ Like, she was very aware of it as a kid, which I think is really interesting, that she didn’t want to brag about it, she was very like ‘I don’t like to talk about that my family has money,’ and like for a four year old -
R: That’s so mature. That is like an old soul.
Q: I know! I really think that she was incredibly mature for her age.
R: Wow. That’s kind of wild because most kids at that age it’s all about having the best stuff and -
Q: showing off to everybody and she was so not like that. Very humble.
R: Oh my gosh. So, I mean, Boulder as an area, nice town?
Q: Very affluent town. Not very diverse, as a town, but yeah - I mean everybody always talks about that one of the reasons why the case had so many flaws when it came to solving the crime was that things like that just don’t happen there.
R: They didn’t know how to deal with it.
Q: Yeah, like drunk college students… that’s what the police handle in Boulder, but not murders like this.
R: Right, and so you’re saying everyone sort of knew the Ramseys as this sort of especially affluent family? So even within an upscale community even they were kind of, doing better than everyone else?
Q: I would say so. I mean like everybody in Boulder, well not everybody, but, it’s definitely a pretty affluent city but I would still say that they were considered one of the more affluent families there.
R: Ok, and so, your friendship with JonBenet, I mean it obviously, and this is just where the surreal, I mean for me just talking about it, the timeline it’s obviously a very short period of time because her life was cut so tragically short. Did it go past preschool? Did you go to the same kindergarten after preschool?
Q: We did not. So we ended up going to different kindergartens, but we still remained friends and would still have playdates. We definitely didn’t see each other as often just because we’re not with each other every single day but we’d still have playdates up until she died.
R: And how about Mrs. Ramsey? Did you, do you have an impression of her? I can think of my childhood friends’ moms - they’re actually kind of a big influence in your life when your spend a lot of time -
Q: They definitely are. Yeah and I always think about that because I mean I remember having friends’ parents who like I wasn’t as big of a fan of, but I loved Patsy as a kid. She was amazing. People will always talk about that just because the family is always, you know, people aren’t the nicest about the family and I understand that and I can kind of see where people are coming from but simultaneously, I didn’t have a ton of experience really with John or Burke. I didn’t spend that much time with them, but spent a decent amount of time with Patsy and can say only nice things about her - which, I thought she was an amazing mother -
R: Good, I’m glad to hear that.
Q: Very attentive to JonBenet and very sweet to us. I mean, I never had any bad experiences with her.
R: That makes me happy. The pageant thing - was that happening, how did you, did you have consciousness of it ?
Q: Yeah, definitely. I mean, this is always something that comes up with people when they talk about the pageant thing and I know that, a lot of the things I see about it are people saying ‘oh, she was obviously forced into this thing’ and that like because Patsy did the pageants she wanted to have like a little mini-me and honestly, I didn’t see that. Again, I was a kid so there could have been things that I was missing but when JonBenet would talk to me about pageants, I only just remember her being extremely proud of them and showing off the trophies that she had won and writing me postcards like, ‘I’m at this one right now and I’m so excited to do it.’ I also remember, there was one time as a kid, Patsy invited me, JonBenet, and my mom to go watch Patsy in this kind of pageant fashion thing that she was doing in Boulder so I always felt that JonBenet’s pageants were just her wanting to be like her mom.
R: That was their connection.
Q: Yeah, that was a connection that they had. I never got the impression that she was forced into doing anything or that she didn’t enjoy what she was doing. I went to a couple of pageant rehearsals with her, she always seemed to be really enjoying herself. So I never got the impression that it was like, ‘I’m being forced to do this thing and I hate it.’ I mean I remember doing soccer and playing instruments as a kid and hating it.
R: Yeah, most of us have something like that in our childhood!
Q: Just like, I don’t wanna be doing this, and I think kids are pretty vocal about those kinds of things when they don’t want to do them, and I never heard anything like that from her.
R: Ok, I’m glad to hear that too. Did you want to do it? Did it like, I have that best friend that I kind of envied certain things she did or was able to do -
Q: Oh my god, yes. You got to wear the pretty dresses, you got to do your hair, you got to travel. I mean I thought it was the coolest thing when I was a kid.
R: How did your mom perceive it? Do you remember her having an opinion on it like, ‘no it’s not for you or us’ or?
Q: I don’t know. I mean, I was a dancer as a kid so I think I kind of had that similar outlet of like I liked to perform and I get to put makeup on and it’s not like anything weird, it’s just me and what I do for my dance show. This is how I perform. I put on a costume, kind of thing. So I think I found similarities through that.
R: Ok, and then your mom and Mrs. Ramsey, whose name is escaping me - it’s Patricia, right?
Q: Yeah, Patsy. Patricia.
R: Patsy! So, were they friendly? I mean it sounds like you had some experience together the four of you and I guess this move us a little bit more into the future and present - does your mom have perceptions of Patsy and are they pretty aligned with yours?
Q: Yeah. I have not had lengthy discussions with my mom about Patsy. I do know that she met with her a couple of times after JonBenet died. I remember ones of those times. I remember one of those times because Patsy came over, I think this was after they had moved out of Boulder, too.
R: And how soon was that after JonBenet died?
Q: I don’t think it took them very long because they also already had other houses so I think they just went to just go - because I mean like, it’s a lot, living in that house, I can’t even fathom what that would feel like. So it was pretty soon after, I think, and I remember her coming over and she had brought me like a little teddy bear with angel wings, and the teddy bear if you squeezed its hand would say ‘I’m your guardian angel’ and so, she was very, I think she did an amazing job with me as a kid and understanding -
R: Wait so this is Patsy or your mom?
Q: Patsy had brought me that.
R: Was it JonBenet’s or had she just got it for you?
Q: No, she had just gotten it for me.
R: That’s very thoughtful.
Q: Yeah, and I have a couple of letters that she wrote to me and my mom afterwards so I mean she really kept in touch a little bit, I think obviously she was going through a lot and then she had the battle with cancer that she was going through later, so they weren’t extremely close but there was definitely a little bit of contact afterwards.
R: We’ve already gone to the death of JonBenet but let’s go back to maybe right before it happened and leading up - so she was six?
Q: She was six.
R: And you were six? You were the same age?
Q: Yes.
R: So you’re six year old, and news, I mean how quickly did your family hear and the community and what did that look like? Who told you and what did they say?
Q: Obviously it traveled very quickly and because it was such a high profile case it was everywhere, immediately.

R: On the news all day and all night.
Q: My mom actually, this is something that I didn’t even know she did. She tells me these things like years after it happened, but, so you know in the grocery stores that you go up and there’s those trashy magazines? Tabloids? And so she actually went to our local grocery store and told them ‘you have to take these down because my child is going to be here. This just happened to her. You have to take these down because they’re at eye height and she’s gonna see these and this is like the last thing that she needs right now.’ So she like she made them take it down in the grocery store.
R: What a hero.
Q: I know, my mom - same thing, I went to a doctor’s office to get my DNA taken for the FBI and the FBI tried to talk to me and my mom was like, ‘no, you don’t get to talk to my child. This is gonna be so traumatic for her.’ And same with my pediatrician. Immediately was like, ‘nope, you’re not allowed to come into the room.’
R: Wow, so wait the FBI wanted your DNA?
Q: Yes.
R: Because you’d been in that house?
Q: Because I’d been in the house.
R: So timeline, what do you think, was that days after?
Q: I don’t even, I don’t even remember it.

R: So you’re getting your DNA collected, FBI, how does your mom tell you like, ‘that’s what we’re doing today - like, going to get your DNA’?
Q: So she, what she tells me she had told me because I did not have any memory of this as a kid - she told me that we had to go to the doctor’s office because I had to get a strep test done which makes sense because if they’re swabbing my mouth for DNA I would have thought it was a step test. Or I think she said something about like ‘kids are getting strep at school, we have to double check to make sure you’re ok’ kind of a thing. And I just took that as a kid, so -
R: Your mom is emerging as the hero just more and more throughout this story.
Q: She’s definitely my hero.
R: That makes sense. That’s what I would hope to think of if um, I was in that situation, also what’s DNA? Like a four year old, or, six year old you know, there’s not context.
Q: Yeah, I probably would have had zero understanding of that.
R: So, they were doing that because you’d been in the home. So this is an investigation.
Q: Yeah, you know they have to investigate anybody who had recently been in the home or who was close with the family so -
R: How aware of that were you, at six?
Q: I was not aware that I would have been in any way associated with a case, for sure, that definitely did not hit me at all. I don’t honestly, and this is like now an interesting thing to think about, I don’t really remember what age I was when I finally realized that like her family was being investigated. Cause I know that I had that realization at some point but I don’t really remember how old I was ‘cause my parents really were like, I told you about getting the tabloids taken down and if it ever came on the TV they would turn it off.
R: So they were really sheltering you from the reality of what was happening. But I’m sure if I were to interview your mom, it was probably going rampant like through the mom circuit.
Q: I cannot even imagine. We stopped going to church because it was such an issue and then people at church were turning against the Ramseys and there was a lot of internal drama and so like we stopped going to church because it was all over the church. So there was a lot of like, things that I didn’t realize were happening when I was a kid that my parents were obviously dealing with and trying to keep me as removed from it as possible.
R: Was there any trickle-down on the first-grade, second-grade level of kids? I mean obviously a classmate was lost, you weren’t in her same school, but a child in your community, were kids talking about that?
Q: I remember me bringing it up to other kids ‘cause I think as like a six, seven year old learning how to process that was really difficult. So I remember talking about her a lot as a kid to other kids. And that was mainly it was like ‘she was one of my best friends’ and ‘she was so amazing’ and that kind of stuff. So I remember doing that as a kid and they had heard of her. So it was obviously, I mean you talk to I think anybody who was old enough and especially anybody who was living in Boulder that because it was kind of everywhere and all over the news and everything that people were aware even if they were kids of at least who she was.
R: There was this collective consciousness of the story and the case. But I’m curious because the family and the police put out the kidnapping story and the ransom note, was the town like ‘oh my gosh there’s a kidnapper on the loose?’ Was there any more locking of doors and safety talks? Do you remember that or do your parents?
Q: I don’t remember - I remember as a kid kind of because afraid because when my parents told me what had happened it was like under the thing of somebody broke into their house and did this thing and I remember, I mean me and my sister both talk about just being terrified. Like, I had nightmares for a very long - like it - ‘cause you’re just like, ‘oh, I didn’t realize that that was a thing that could happen as a kid’ so it’s this realization of like sometimes people do bad things to children and kind of realizing that at a pretty young age.
R: Your poor parents had to sit down and do that, so - talk about that moment. Do you remember that or is this more kind of like family memory that you share between you or do you remember that moment?
Q: I remember it, my sister I think remembers it more.
R: She was older?
Q: Yeah, she was older. If I was six, my sister would have been nine when it was happening so I think she has a stronger memory of it. I mean I do remember being sat down, it was like we had just had a playdate with two other friends and my sister and I were downstairs and I remember my parents sitting me down and essentially saying what happened, that somebody had broken into the house and that she was dead and that’s kind of the majority of what I really remember from it.

R: But you wouldn’t say there was widespread panic around Boulder, in terms of intruders.
Q: If there was I don’t think I was aware of it. I definitely think that it could have been a possibility. I think it’s kind of like, you hear about this with any town where something like this happens and it’s not something that towns are used to where, now it’s just this realization of oh you have to lock the door and this was something that could happen here and we didn’t realize that this was something that could happen here.
R: It’s like a loss of innocence on this macro-level in a community.
Q: Yes, definitely.

That is part one - - will post the rest as it becomes available.

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  Dale Yeager on Dave Matthew's
Posted by: jameson245 - 10-30-2019, 08:35 AM - Forum: Discredited and discounted witnesses in this case - No Replies

WROW Radio, The Dave Lucas Radio Show, Albany, NY, January 30, 1999

DAVE LUCAS: On line we have Dale Yeager, the executive director of SERAPH. Hello Mr. Yeager. Welcome to the program.
DALE YEAGER: Hi, how are you?
DAVE LUCAS: Very Good. Mr. Yeager has been involved in the training of law enforcement officers in "less than lethal" tactics for more than ten years. He's a trained criminal analyst who's consulted on more than 130 criminal cases - including the murder investigation of JonBenét Ramsey. Now, you were hired by the Boulder Police Department. Tell us about that.
DALE YEAGER: I was hired by the district attorney’s office to work with the investigative team. Originally we were asked to do an analysis of the ransom note and then in the spring of last year we were asked to write a psychological profile on Patsy Ramsey.
Excuse me for being bold but I've been sitting here listening to this now for three hours. I am one of the few people, my team of people are one of the few people that actually worked on this case. We are not reading things in the newspaper, we are not getting things off of CNN. I had information to do my work that none of these guests had -- and these theories are just... I'm blown away by this.
DAVE LUCAS: There are some ???? theories aren't they?
DALE YEAGER: You know there's a lot of "wanna be experts" out there and it really disgusts me that this case has become a magnet would like to theorize in an area they have no right to be in. I have done this for 10 years. I've worked on cases like this before and some of these theories have no basis in reality. I think that your listeners need to understand that there's significant, some significant issues here that need to be dealt with and some issues here that affect our society as a whole and I just think that needs to be brought out.
DAVE LUCAS: Well, who killed JonBenét Ramsey?
DALE YEAGER: Patsy Ramsey killed her daughter.
DAVE LUCAS: What evidence do you have to support that?
DALE YEAGER: The evidence is very clear. Patsy Ramsey is a sociopath. There are basically two types of people who commit violent acts. There are sociopaths and psychopaths. A sociopath is a person who is very controlling. A sociopath is a person that must be in charge at all times. They pick someone in their life to control, or multiple people to control. When they can no longer control that individual, they lash out at them - either by isolating them out of their life - more than likely killing them. OJ Simpson is a sociopath and it's not very hard to understand the basic motive behind this murder. The problem is that all the so-called "experts" we heard tonight who get all their media attention really are using logic to understand an illogical act. We have a woman here who has been immersed in a subculture of religious fervor- that has never been brought out as far as the motivation here. She is a religious delusional sociopath and it would take me literally six hours to explain to - to commit to people how that works. The bottom line is that her daughter was growing up and becoming more independent. The bedwetting was part of that... different things that... anyone could read the newspaper... you could see there was a split between her and her daughter.
DAVE LUCAS: Let me ask you, what about the sexual abuse?
DALE YEAGER: There's... You know what? Let me tell you something. First of all, autoerotic asphyxiation ... there... if you talk to child abuse experts, the occurrence of that with an adult on a child, there are no cases of that. Show me a case where that has happened involving a child. Normally it is done in a solo act of masturbation -- or it has been done with couples...
DALE YEAGER: OK - the bottom line is that the motivation for killing a child is very simple - either jealousy, control, sex or rage. It's not that difficult - this isn't brain surgery we are talking about here. We have a woman who is very controlling. We have a woman here who has shown signs of violence in the past -- it's not that difficult to see the connection here. When her daughter starts becoming more aggressive, becoming more independent and she lashes out at her. You know these elaborate theories that have been perpetuated by people who really have a financial interest in the case more than anything else....
CALLER: Have you ever seen a religious delusion murder situation which involved an elaborate cover-up like this one was?
DALE YEAGER: One of my specialties, one of the things that we do a lot of with murder cases, are murder cases that involve people who are using... who have committed an act of violence or murder with some kind of religious motivation whether it be ritualistic.. something like that. As far as "elaborate cover-up, I will agree that the ransom note is the central key feature to the evidence in this case. It certainly hasn't been given the attention that it deserves. You know, as far as "coded messages" are concerned, I find that kind of ironic since the ransom note itself is poorly written. It's obviously written in haste. It's written by someone who has limited knowledge of grammar if nothing else. As far as the religious motivation is concerned, you can look at Patsy's writings, you can look at her involvement with the charismatic movement, and you add to that a near death experience like having..... cancer. You add to that her sociopathic tendencies and you get a fairly scary individual, you get a violent individual. I just think people need to understand this is more common than just this case. People do have religious delusions and they take things out of context. We've always believed that the 118 was related to scripture that showed up in many of her writings and ....
Pardon me?
Caller: I know that people sometimes kill their children in a brief delusional state, a brief psychotic episode. You don't see it as that. What evidence do you have that she is sociopathic?
DALE YEAGER: Well, a sociopath is very easy to define - a sociopath is a person that likes to control the situation, they like to control the people around them. Their opinion is the only one that matters. They tend to be very aggressive verbally. They tend to be very aggressive physically. When they are attacked, they become the victim, "poor pitiful me". They are kind of a chameleon in a social setting. They are usually leaders, the type of person who takes charge in a situation. And then you add to the fact that she comes from a southern culture.... and that's a whole other aspect... women in southern cultures... you know, the.. the whole aspect of women being reared in southern cultures where protecting your family by lying, protecting your family by any means is something almost genetically drilled into that subculture. There's a lot of aspects to this but the bottom line is it's a very common crime - a child being killed by their parents, especially the mother. You look at her past, you look at her personality, the evidence is there that she's committed this crime. My job as a profiler with investigative teams is to give them some kind of an idea of motivation. The motivation here is somewhat simple but it has some complicated aspects to it. And mainly it's this feeling that we believe she felt she was going to die and she started to see a need for a sacrifice that she had to make and the murder of her daughter becomes a sacrifice. You can't understand those kinds of motivations with logical thought. Everyone's coming at this tonight from a very forensics perspective and I have a great deal of respect for forensic scientists, a very important part of solving crimes, but there are other aspects to trying to figure out motive than just forensics.
LANCE MATTHEWS: Evidence of stun gun or TAZER - any... is that crap??
DALE YEAGER: Well, look, I do not claim and never have claimed to be a forensic expert. My responsibility in the investigation of a crime is to assess motive, to research anomalies in that crime, and to provide questions for the interview of suspects. So I just don't claim to be a forensics person, at best it would be guessing. I do agree with your current guest that's on with me, I'm sorry I forget your name, about the series of events in regards to how the death occurred. I do agree with that. I think that the evidence is very clear that that is how things occurred.
But remember too, that strangulation is a very intimate type of crime. There's two types of intimate crimes and that is strangulation and stabbing someone with an edged weapon. So whenever you see that in a murder scene, you know there was some kind of an intimate connection between the two people - when that's the method of killing. Strangulation or using an edged weapon. They're very intimate ways of killing. There's enough evidence here to point to the people closest to this poor young girl.
Program was interrupted.... problems at studio...
Apologies from DAVE LUCAS -
DALE YEAGER: Maybe it's an omen...
LANCE MATTHEWS: Where were we?
DALE YEAGER: We were talking about the method of the killing which really points to some specific motive in itself...
Caller from Albany suggesting making this a federal case.
DALE YEAGER: I think that the district attorney.... I finally quit and said enough is enough. I refused to work anymore on the case. My partner who wrote those reports with me agreed ... there were a lot of us who left basically at the same time that Steve Thomas left. We'd had enough. I think the district attorney - I think your caller is correct in the sense that the district attorney I think has political aspirations and this is my opinion, my personal opinion, I think he believes that is he tries the case and loses it, that his political aspirations will go down the drain similar to the district attorney in Los Angeles who lost the OJ case. And I think that's why this incompetent investigation from the district attorney's perspective. I think the police who have been involved, the detectives who have been involved have been top notch and I think they've tried to do their job but they've been hampered by a district attorney who is more concerned about perception than doing the job that he was hired to do.
CHARLES BOSWORTH: No, Hunter has no political aspirations - he is dead politically. "The DA has been bribed. Period."
No one really knew where John Ramsey had all his money - a bribe could be paid in the future.
"How much does the family have?
DALE YEAGER: There was quite a bit.
DALE YEAGER: I've been told 30 million... or 45....
CHARLES BOSWORTH: -- Is that all?
DALE YEAGER: What's that?
Have you checked the value of the stock lately?
DALE YEAGER: I don't know. I think the district attorney... there's a possibility that that has occurred. I've heard some things to that, only rumors. Because he stepped in front of a lot of bullets for the family
CHARLES BOSWORTH: We need a federal...
DALE YEAGER: I do agree with that assessment
Lance Matthews pointed out that Hal Haddon is multi-million dollar partners with DA Alex Hunter -- talk about lax legal system in Colorado...
DALE YEAGER:.... Someone has to step in and intervene in this case because it has dragged on too long. I said before there are social implications of this case on a national basis that I think no one has really talked much about. I think one of them is that there is a lot of classism that has been brought to the surface because of this case. I get a lot of people asking me - when I work out at the YMCA or when I am at church - about the case. And invariably, as much as this is an amateur survey, invariably, white wealthy women will say to me, "I can't perceive that happening. Why... how can a mother kill her daughter?" And I will always say to them, "Well, if she was Black or Hispanic, would you feel the same way?" And they ALWAYS say, "Well, no. That happens in that society."
LANCE MATTHEWS: "Let's go to Patsy's origins - let's go with Southern women."
DALE YEAGER: This is an subject that will probably annoy certain listeners but try to understand it from a criminal analysis perspective.
Our culture, American culture, is really made up of a lot of subcultures. For example, I am Pennsylvania Dutch. My family has been in Pennsylvania since 1703 and that's a subculture and there are certain norms about that subculture. One of the things we know about Southern culture is that women in Southern cultures, with exceptions but for the most part, are raised in a very specific way. And one of the things that the Justice Department, where I received my training, did a study of this and found that there is a... what is called a sociopathic tendency to childrearing as it relates to women in Southern culture. I know this sounds bizarre but is very real and the best way to explain that is the case of the woman in Texas several years ago who attempted or did kill the girl who took her daughter's spot on the cheerleading team. If you remember that case.
LANCE MATTHEWS: I remember that one.
DALE YEAGER: When she was interviewed by detectives, she said, "I was taught by my mother that you protect your family at all costs." And we call it "The Cult of the Family". James Dobson is probably the greatest perpetuator of this "The Cult of the Family".
The family is more important than anything else and it becomes an obsession. And so these woman of the southern culture are taught that lying to protect your family, doing illegal acts or unethical things is part of your process of being a mom.

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  Dale Yeager's reports
Posted by: jameson245 - 10-30-2019, 08:31 AM - Forum: Discredited and discounted witnesses in this case - No Replies

Analysis of $118,000 ransom demand in Ramsey case
To: Det. Ron Gosage
Reference: Psalm 118:27b, Biblical reference Old Testament

"The Lord is our God, Who has shown and given us light. Decorate the festival with leafy boughs and bind the sacrifices to be offered with thick cords to the horns of the altar."

Based on my experience, this second section of verse 27 has been used by several white supremacy groups such as the Christian Identity movement and the Aryan Nation to justify their killing of blacks, Jews and other minorities. In their non-orthodox view, the verse is speaking of offering a person as a sacrifice to God and God is accepting their sacrifice on his altar as atonement. No conservative or liberal Christian theologians interpret the verse in this way.

We have consulted with several theologians about the verse and all have agreed that the verse is a metaphor concerning praise and redemption.

As a historical note, the Hebrews where required to offer a blood sacrifice to God to atone for their sins as a nation. A lamb or sheep would be placed on the altar and tied to the four extended horns of the altar with thick cords. The animal was then cut and bled until it was dead. The blood was then used in ceremony for the "washing away by the blood, the sins of the people".

White supremacists use the redemption and sacrifice ideas to form a justification for killing "animals" [minorities] and offering them to God.

In 1987, I met a FBI agent who told me about a case in the late 1970s, that involved this verse of scripture. The case involved a woman with a very conservative Christian background, who strangled her daughter and used this verse as a justification for the killing. Her belief was that the child would be better off in "heaven with God" and that the daughter would be a redemptive sacrifice to God for her [the mother's] sins. We have tried to find information about this case but have been unsuccessful. I would suggest a call to the Psychological Crimes Unit of the FBI in Quantico, VA.

My assessment of this verse and it's possible relevance to this case is as follows: The person using this verse would be from a conservative Christian background, i.e. Southern Baptist, Presbyterian, etc. They would see themselves as having committed a grievous sin that requires more than a prayer of forgiveness. Their disgust for their sin would lead to anger towards themselves and towards the person that they felt they had wronged in this case the girl.

By killing the child they believed that they where taking the child from a dark world or a dark existence and sending the child to a better place. This blood sacrifice would in their mind bring them redemption for their sin and rid them of their guilt as it related to the child.

I have spent over twenty years studying extreme conservative Christian ideology. Based on my experience and research, this belief in para-redemptive acts manifests itself in many ways, some extreme and some more philosophical.

From my limited knowledge of the killing [ news reports of forensic findings ], I believe that the individual who committed this act, had no previous experience with the killing of a human being.

If the information is correct, the strangulation and blunt trauma to the skull meant that the offender tried one method of killing the girl and then changed to a different method out of frustration. One of these methods failed and the person resorted to a second method to kill the victim. The contusions and other secondary injuries may have been attempts to control the victim during a struggle or strikes of frustration when the child did not die on the first attempt.

Based on my experience this crime was done by an intimate, a person who knew the victim and had an emotional attachment to the victim. If the forensic information that I have is correct, the offender attempted strangulation first, ]. The offender was in my opinion connected to the victim in an emotional way.

I hope that this information assist you in your investigation. If you need additional information, please feel free to contact me.

Submitted: 29 July 1997


Dale Yeager

Murder Investigation of JonBenet Ramsey
Part II

Prepared by:
Dale Yeager
Denise Knoke

Psalm 118:18 - 27

1/1a As we stated in our first report, we believe that Patsy Ramsey's mindset before and after the murder of JonBenet, was heavily influenced by the charismatic theological subculture that she had embraced during her bout with cancer.

Psalm 118 is a biblical chapter that is used quite often in the Charismatic/Pentecostal movement. This subculture of the Christian Religion has many unwritten fundamentals that they adhere to. One area in which they divert from main stream Christian theology is in the area of biblical interpretation. Because of their extreme emphasis on spiritual gifts, they tend to have a more flexible view of interpretation compared to the more scholarly approach taken by their fellow Christians in main steam denominations.

Rather than believing the scriptures to be the general will of God being presented to all believers, they take a more mystical approach by viewing the scriptures as a prophetic tool used by God to speak to individual believers. This flexible attitude leads to extraordinarily diverse views theologically. We believe that Patsy Ramsey took this approach from the Osteen, Hickey and Barnhill books that she was introduced to during her illness.

1/2a Several words and phrases that appear in the ransom note also appear together and with great frequency in these books and in the Charismatic subculture. The following list explains their importance in this case.

CORDS OR BINDINGS - Binding is a significant word used frequently in the Charismatic subculture. It stems from the belief that Satan/Evil does not operate without Gods permission. This tenant of Charismatic theology requires that individual believers verbally "bind" Satan's power over their lives through prayer, verbal affirmations to other believers during worship and in some cases through the ceremonial tying of physical cords or ropes around themselves or others. It is possible that the tying of JonBenet body with cords was linked to Patsy's view of JonBenet's death, whether accidental or deliberate, as a para-redemptive sacrifice similar to the request by God to Abraham regarding his son.

S.B.T.C. - In the Charismatic subculture, acronyms are quite common and used quite frequently as teaching tools and on banners [In church icons]. S.B.T.C. is a well-used acronym that represents the words "saved by the cross". In our extensive database of terroristic groups, we find no use of this phrase with White Supremacy or International Organizations. The author of the ransom note uses this acronym along with the word "victory". The word "victory" is used in the Charismatic subculture as a verb. It is seen as the result of actions taken by believers to bind and overcome Satan's power primarily in the areas of physical health.

SACRIFICE - The concept of sacrifice is prominent in all Christian theology most clearly in the idea of Jesus being sacrificed on the cross for the remission of the world's sins. In Charismatic theology sacrifice is connected to chastisement. The idea that believers must sacrifice to be truly repentant is emphasized heavily. Charismatic theology holds that true confession involves sacrificial action by the believer. This sacrificial action is usually benign such as asking forgiveness from a person you have offended.
We believe that Patsy Ramsey is a delusional sociopath. Based on our experience with religious sociopaths, we believe that she saw JonBenet's death as a sacrifice for sins she had committed. Obviously Psalm 118 does not ask for human sacrifice but in her delusional mindset she interpreted verse 27 as a request by God for a para-redemptive act.
1/3a Our conclusion is that you are investigating a child's murder with ritualistic overtones. Mrs. Ramsey's motives and post incident actions cannot be understood with rational thought. This crime was committed by a delusional individual who has convinced herself of her own innocence. Sociopaths always view their violent actions as justified. When a divine intervention is added to this justification pathology, you have a highly volatile individual.

We do not believe as has been theorized that this murder was the result of sexual assault. The autopsy report clearly states that the vaginal trauma was superficial and not consistent with known forensic profiles of sexual assault. There is no evidence in pedophile research of strangulation as a means of sexual gratification for a child molester. Strangulation and sexual assault are most commonly seen in sadomasochism between heterosexual and homosexual adults. Or by late adolescent and young adult males during masturbation.

We do not believe that John Ramsey was involved in a sexual relationship with JonBenet. We do believe that he played a role in the cover up that followed the murder.


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  on henry Lee - CBS
Posted by: jameson245 - 10-24-2019, 10:43 PM - Forum: DNA Charlie Brennan - Replies (1)

The news that Boulder Police had unearthed a possible explanation for the unknown male DNA found in JonBenet’s panties was leaked to Charlie Brennan who subsequently wrote about it in the Rocky Mountain News on November 19, 2002 under the following headline:


Investigators in the JonBenet Ramseycase believe that male DNA recovered from the slain child's underwear may not be critical evidence at all, and instead could have been left at the time of the clothing's manufacture.
In exploring that theory, investigators obtained unopened ``control'' samples of identical underwear manufactured at the same plant in Southeast Asia, tested them - and found human DNA in some of those new, unused panties.
If investigators are right about possible production-line contamination - perhaps stemming from something as innocent as a worker's cough - then the genetic markers obtained from JonBenet's underpants are of absolutely no value in potentially excluding any suspects in the unsolved Boulder slaying.
And, investigators know the DNA found in the underwear - white, with red rose buds and the word ``Wednesday'' inscribed on the elastic waist band - was not left by seminal fluid.
Brennan then quoted an ‘anonymous investigator’ as saying: 
(An) investigator with expertise on forensic issues, who spoke only on the condition of anonymity, confirmed the theory that the underwear DNA might be the result of point-of-production contamination.
And, wherever it came from, that investigator said, ``We certainly don't think it is attributable to an assailant. That's our belief. When you take everything else in total, it doesn't make sense. I've always said this is not a DNA case. It's not hinging on DNA evidence.''
So that was it from Boulder Police as far as the panties DNA was concerned. The DNA found on the panties was from an Asian factory worker. It had nothing to do with the sexual assault on JonBenet that immediately preceded her murder, nothing at all. There was no unknown male in the house that night. Boulder Police could thus maintain the view that know that the family is guilty because they have dealt with and disposed of that pesky non-family DNA present at the crime scene as simply a red herring. As reported in the Associated Press, Denver November 20 by Katherine Vogt:
A theory made public this week suggests that DNA evidence found inJonBenet Ramsey's underwear after her slaying may have come from the clothing manufacturing process — not her killer
In the same article grand jury prosecutor Michael Kane was quoted as saying:
"There is always a possibility that it got there through human handling," former prosecutor Michael Kane told the News. 
"You have to ask yourself the possible ways that it got there: whether it was in themanufacture, the packaging or the distribution, or whether it was someone in the retailstore who took it out to look at them," said Kane, who ran a 13-month grand juryinvestigation that yielded no indictments. 

As has always been the norm with Boulder Police, they didn’t ever show anyone outside their own department the actual lab results. They interpreted and evaluated them for us and we have been expected to trust that they have have done all this correctly and appropriately. 

We know that it was the ever-obliging Dr Henry Lee who got these results, so welcomed by the Boulder Police. As Lee stated to Catherine Crier in 2004:
Transcript of Crier Live w/ Dr. Henry Lee, August 25, 2004: 

Dr. Lee: Right. We did some a test um, new garment. A lot of time the new garment, a panty, just come out of package, you found foreign DNA. Because today we use a very sensitive method of STI, that’s the third generation of DNA testing now. You multiply the DNA millions of copies then you test that multiplied copies.

Information confirmed by Barry Scheck to Wolf Blitzer in 2006:


“I know Dr. Henry Lee went out and bought underwear of the same kind and took it out of the plastic wrapper and took a cutting and extracted DNA and got some profiles from it.”

A case follower, Carol Martin of Walnut Creek, California was intrigued enough to seek more information about Henry Lee's results and whether they supported the police claim that the unknown male DNA in the panties might have nothing to do with the crime. After a 48 Hours program where the DNA from unopened packages had been discussed, she reported in a letter to the editor of Westword that was published in the July 12 2006 edition, that she had written to 48 Hours about it and had received replies from both Erin Moriarty and the producer of 48 Hours:

I e-mailed 48 Hours because I had problems with statements like "the evidence shows blah-blah" without the show telling us what that evidence might be. The producer and Erin Moriarty both wrote me back. The most interesting thing the producer said was that while traces of DNA have been found in unopened packages of underwear, the foreign DNA in JonBenét's was ten to twelve times that amount. That was news to me. 
This was all very interesting. But why should we believe what Carol Martin said and how does it impact on Henry Lee’s findings anyway?

Fast forward to 2016 and thanks to the producers the CBS documentary screened September 19, 2016 - The Case of JonBenet Ramsey Episode 2 part 1 with Jim Clemente and Laura Richards - we get to see some of Lee's raw data of DNA collected from fresh-from-the-package panties.

Right at the beginning of the show Henry Lee states his opinion about the panty DNA:

KOLAR: But what would account for the blood in her underwear? 

LEE: Underwear was only spot, could be from any other transfer. It’s really no sexual assault here. 

To prove his theory Lee offers to re-test some fresh-from-the-package panties. Clemente and Richards are shown going to Lee's lab in Connecticut where Richards produces some packages of panties she has bought from local stores. Lee shines a UV light over the panties to locate areas where there might be traces of biological fluid and when he finds such areas he swabs them and hands the swab to a technician for DNA testing. As he does so he makes a few statements:

LEE: The principle of this is to find out a new panty, whether or not we can find foreign DNA.

LEE: What we do, we make a microscopic examination, look at any indication and body fluid. So this has just come out of the package, nobody touched this package? 
LEE: Try to see any material, can you see that? 
LEE: Can you see that two dot? That even could be a blood stain, too. DNA found on the panty, not necessarily the suspect deposited. 

LEE: Because this is a new panty, we know nobody wear it. So we just collect a sample. If we have DNA, then that DNA has to be during the manufacture process.

Two weeks later Clemente and Richards return to the lab to see the results. Here is Henry Lee sitting in front of an electropherogram of a DNA sample he had analysed after obtaining it from one of the items that he had tested as a demonstration for the show. 
[Image: *24.20%20copy.jpg]

Henry Lee's comments of the test results for the fresh-from-the-package panties DNA went as follows: 

LEE:  . . .  the panties, did not match any of us because we did not touch. New, never worn before but had DNA on them. 

CLEMENTE: The new panties— 
LEE: The new panties—just random package—remember we opened it up? 
LEE: We all wear the gloves, so nobody touched the panty, and the panty had DNA. 
LEE: Which indicative that DNA was left on during the manufacture process, when a worker handled the panty. And more likely a female because we found an X chromosome.
LEE: DNA recovered from the case sample probably should be ignored.  

But looking closely at Lee's experimental results on DNA obtained from unused panties it is clear that his comments that the unknown male DNA profile identified by Denver Police from JonBenet's panties should be ignored is based on a very flawed interpretation of both his own and Denver Police's results. For one thing, it appears that while Denver Police obtained 10 DNA 'markers' from JonBenet's panties, Lee obtained zero clear 'markers' from unused panties. All that showed up on Lee's unused panties was the sex determining marker amelogeninX 

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