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  DNA Test from CBS Special
Posted by: Dave - 03-24-2017, 10:58 AM - Forum: DNA found in panties - Replies (5)

On the CBS television show The Case of: JonBenét Ramsey, “pseudo-expert” Henry Lee [1] performed DNA tests on some brand new underwear fresh off the shelf.  The test consisted of:

1) Spraying the underwear with chemicals to locate regions that may contain DNA.

2) Cutting out the identified regions.

3) Submitting the cuttings for DNA testing.

It was reported that female DNA was found.


This is an incompetently designed test.

What should have been done:

1) Randomly drop colored solution or other easily identifiable markings on the crotches of the underwear --- no more than a few such drops per piece of underwear, similar in size and distribution as the blood spots found on JonBenét's underwear.

2) Cut out these randomly identified regions.

3) Submit the cuttings for testing for the presence of male DNA, not female DNA – that is, ignore findings of female DNA.


Spraying the underwear with chemicals to locate regions that contain organic material is a stupid mistake that shows the sloppiness that “pseudo-expert” Henry Lee brings to many of his cases.  The relevant question is not: “Can we find DNA somewhere on these panties?”  but rather: “How likely is it that a spot of blood would land on a region that contains male DNA?”

Claiming that finding female DNA somewhere on the panties is significant is just another erroneous conclusion of the error-prone “pseudo-expert” Henry Lee.  Throughout the history of the garment industry, females dominate production.  The likelihood of male DNA landing on garments compared to the likelihood of female DNA is and always has been far, far lower.  Again, the question isn't “Can we find DNA somewhere on these panties?”  but rather: “How likely is it that a spot of blood would land on a region that contains male DNA?”

Even though this test is incompetently designed, the approximate likelihood of finding male DNA in a region of 0.5 inches in diameter that is randomly chosen can be confidently stated as zero, based on the information provided in the show regarding this test.  The sample size would need to be vastly increased to distinguish, for example, “one in a million” from zero.  Because this incompetently designed test has been not only been performed, but publicized in the popular press, it should be replaced by a relevant test like the one that I have described above, performed by competent personnel at an independent laboratory.

[1] Description of Henry Lee quoted from: STATE OF MICHIGAN IN THE 3RD CIRCUIT COURT FOR THE COUNTY OF WAYNE
BURKE RAMSEY, Plaintiff,
v.
CBS CORPORATION, CRITICAL CONTENT, LLC, JIM CLEMENTE, LAURA RICHARDS, A. JAMES KOLAR, JAMES R. FITZGERALD, STANLEY B.BURKE, WERNER U. SPITZ, and HENRY C. LEE, Defendants.

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  Steve Thomas from depo
Posted by: jameson245 - 03-23-2017, 08:16 AM - Forum: Fiber and Hair Evidence - Replies (1)

Thomas depo 10 - fiber discussion starts"
 
  
Q. Mr. Thomas, would you mind, please, turning to page 302 of your book.
A. Okay.
Q. Do you have it in front of you?
A. Yes, I'm sorry, yes.
Q. Fine. Would you look at thethird paragraph from the top, which begins "Two days before we
were to go onstage." And would you read that whole paragraph, please.
A. Certainly. "Two days before we were to go onstage, we got some surprising big news when the
Colorado Bureau of Investigation lab told us that the acrylic fibers found on the duct tape that covered
JonBenet's mouth were a quote, likely match, for Patsy's blazer. We were ready."
Q. You've been asked earlier with respect to the forensic, you know, not importance, but the
forensic views that the ransom note was being made for. Did this become an important piece of
forensic evidence in the case?
MR. WOOD: You're talking about the ransom note now or the likely match of four fibers?
MR. HOFFMAN: I'm sorry, thank you, Lin.
Q. (BY MR. HOFFMAN) Did the fibers that were found on the duct tape that were covering
JonBenet's mouth that were, quote, a likely match for Patsy's blazer, did that become an important
piece of forensic evidence in the investigation?
A. Yes, sir.
Q. Do you know when or at what point in the case the CBI made that report?
A. I think it was sometime before we were told -- I think that information may have been held by
Wickman and Trujillo and Beckner possibly.
Q. Do you know whether or not that information was actually part of anyone's presentation before
the district attorney that was made prior to the convening of a grand jury when you turned the case
over to the district attorney?
A. Mr. Hoffman, are you asking me -- I'm sorry, that's not clear to me.
Q. All right. That CBI report, did you receive it before you made your formal presentation to the
district attorney's office? That's a presentation that was made prior to the convening of the grand jury.
I believe it was in May or June of 1998 when you formally turned over the case to the district attorney.
I may have that date wrong.
MR. WOOD: Hey, Darnay, I'm just a little unclear if you don't mind.
MR. HOFFMAN: Yeah.
MR. WOOD: There were two presentations, one was made by Trip DeMuth I believe in May and
then there was what we call a VIP presentation that was made of a lot of people other than the DA's
office in June. Those are the two presentations. I'm not sure which one you are referring to.
MR. HOFFMAN: Well, thank you. It is confusing, there is no question about it.
Q. (BY MR. HOFFMAN) The presentation that most people, and myself included, think of is that
large presentation where you stood up and you gave evidence yourself. That's the one where you refer
to Alex Hunter is talking on a cell phone and it sort of -- it seems at the end of that you decided that
you had had enough of the case and you were going to move on. That's the presentation I'm talking
about.
MR. HOFFMAN: I'm assuming -- is that the VIP presentation, Lin?
MR. WOOD: I don't know. I mean, Steve Thomas would have to figure out whether that's an
accurate statement about whether he heard, saw, or thought or felt. I'm not sure.
Q. (BY MR. HOFFMAN) Well, you know what, I'm just confusing the issue. I'm going to drop
that line of questioning and just ask you, did you have occasion to actually see the CBI report that
indicated that there was a likely match for Patsy's blazer with the acrylic fiber found on the duct tape?
A. Not that I recall. Detective Trujillo, who was in charge of all the evidence and forensic testing in
this case, he and Wickman verbally offered that to the rest of the detective team.
Q. All right. So you never personally saw a report with that result or that conclusion?
A. I'm relying on a fellow officer.
Q. Okay. Do you know whether or not there was ever any evidence that you saw or you heard
about in the course of the investigation while you were still with the Boulder police force showing
whether or not any fibers from either Patsy's clothing or from her boots or from any part of her was
found in JonBenet's panties?
MR. WOOD: That's about three or four questions, Darnay.
Q. (BY MR. HOFFMAN) Do you know whether or not there was ever any evidence, forensic
evidence, showing that any article of clothing could be matched to a substance found in JonBenet's
diaper or panties?
MR. WOOD: I have to just comment that I don't believe there was any evidence that JonBenet was
wearing a diaper.
Q. (BY MR. HOFFMAN) All right. To her panties?
A. If I understand the question correctly, and now just rephrase it so I'm answering the right
question or --

Q. Yeah, when JonBenet Ramsey was found she was wearing I don't know what other word there
is for it but panties and there was a question as to whether or not there were substances found in that
panty area. What I'm asking you is do you know if there was ever any forensic evidence indicating that
any article of clothing that Patsy wore was found as a particle in that panty area of JonBenet?

A. No, I am unaware of any forensic or fiber evidence from Patsy Ramsey's clothing to the victim's
under clothing or underwear.

Q. Do you know if there was any forensic evidence of Patsy Ramsey's clothing at all besides the
duct tape area on JonBenet?

A. As we sit here now, no, I don't recollect any other fiber evidence, other than what we have
discussed linking the mother to JonBenet.

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  Thomas deposition on pineapple
Posted by: jameson245 - 03-23-2017, 07:59 AM - Forum: Pineapple or Fruit Cocktail? - Replies (1)

http://www.webbsleuths.com/dcf/DCForumID107/5.html

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  from DA Alex Hunter's
Posted by: jameson245 - 03-23-2017, 07:18 AM - Forum: Handwriting - Replies (1)

http://www.webbsleuths.com/dcf/jbr_evidence/107.html

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  Our introduction to DNA-X
Posted by: jameson245 - 03-23-2017, 05:42 AM - Forum: DNA-X - Replies (3)

From Mark Beckner's deposition in Wolf v Ramsey

18 Q Has anyone matched the DNA from the scene?
19 A No.
20 Q Can you give me a ballpark figure of how
21 many individuals have submitted DNA?
22 A Well, back up a minute. There is more
23 than one sample of DNA. So specifically what are you
24 referring to?
25 Q Well, as I understand it, there is DNA and

121
1 I don't want to get technical here, but I understand
2 there was DNA found, foreign DNA, found under the
3 fingernails on JonBent's left and right hands; am I
4 right?
5 A Okay. Yes.
6 Q As I understand it, there was foreign DNA
7 found either on -- I'll just say on her underwear?
8 A Yes.
9 Q Now, I'm not aware as I sit here of any
10 other DNA. Was there any other?
11 A Yes.
12 Q Where was it?
13 A Well --
14 MR. MILLER: Just a minute.
15 THE DEPONENT: Yeah. We're getting into
16 evidence here.
17 MR. MILLER: I don't think you should
18 answer that question.
19 Q (BY MR. WOOD) I have to be able to know.
20 You raised the issue yourself about the different
21 areas of DNA. So I assume it has some relevance to
22 the subject matter that I'm asking you about in terms
23 of the tests done with Chris Wolf.
24 A You can certainly ask me if Chris Wolf
25 matched any DNA at the scene. I can answer that.

122
1 Q But I'm asking you about -- but I asked
2 you whether anyone else's did and you indicated
3 initially no. I said Do you know whether DNA -- I
4 believe you told me DNA tests were done or performed
5 with respect to Chris Wolf?
6 Yes; to the best of my recollection, yes.
7 Do you know the results?
8 Yes.
9 What were the results?
10 "Answer: He did not match the DNA from
11 the scene.
12 "Question: Has anyone matched the DNA
13 from the scene?
14 "Answer: No.
15 "Question: Can you give me a ballpark
16 figure of how many individuals have submitted DNA"
17 and you didn't answer that.
18 You said "Well, back up a minute. There
19 is more than one sample of DNA. So specifically what
20 are you referring to" was the question you posed to
21 me.
22 So that has relevance of your own inquiry
23 and so I need to find out what other DNA you're
24 referring to.
25 A When you asked the question, I'm thinking

123
1 the unknown DNA.
2 Q Well, I mean --
3 A I answered the question in that context.
4 Q Known DNA -- I'm talking about DNA foreign
5 to JonBent.
6 A Okay.
7 Q That's what I'm asking you about and
8 whether any of that has been matched, DNA found on
9 her, foreign to her, whether that was matched to
10 Chris Wolf?
11 A DNA found on her?
12 Q Or on her clothing.
13 A And the question is did that match to
14 Chris Wolf? The answer is no.
15 Q Has it matched, been matched to anyone?
16 A The DNA on JonBent?
17 Q And/or on her clothing?
18 A No.
19 Q Obviously you're telling me there was DNA
20 that was not on JonBen t or on her clothing; is that
21 correct?
22 A Correct.
23 Q Where was that?
24 A We're getting into areas where I feel like
25 we can't go.



 

jameson[Image: team_icon.gif]
Charter Member
9423 posts

Apr-10-03, 05:03 PM (EST)
[Image: mesg_add_buddy.gif]  
11. "RE: Mark Beckner's deposition"
In response to message #10
 
  
124
1 Q Well, I'm trying to figure out what was
2 done with Chris Wolf, and then obviously I'm trying
3 to find out if it's been matched with anyone since
4 that's the larger picture of the case in its
5 entirety. But I don't know what I'm getting if I
6 don't know what I'm asking about. You raised the
7 question, you've indicated there was DNA that was
8 found somewhere other than on her body or on her
9 clothing.
10 I had initially asked you about the crime
11 scene, I thought. Pull that back up. I asked you
12 specifically, you did not match the DNA from the
13 scene? Answer --
14 "Question: Has anyone matched the DNA
15 from the scene?
16 "Answer: No."
17 And you seem to be telling me now that you
18 want to modify that answer, that there was DNA from
19 the scene foreign to JonBent. And I'm asking you
20 where?
21 A What I'm saying is I am getting into
22 evidence that goes beyond Chris Wolf.
23 Q Well, was Chris Wolf's -- was Chris Wolf's
24 DNA tested against this other DNA that you say was
25 found at the scene that you don't want to tell me

125
1 about?
2 A Well, that wouldn't be accurate. Compared
3 against would be the accurate question.
4 Q Well, was it compared against?
5 A Yes.
6 Q Why would it be compared against if it had
7 already been identified as known?
8 A Well, again --
9 MR. MILLER: I don't think he can answer
10 this question.
11 Q (BY MR. WOOD) Well, the DNA evidence from
12 Mr. Wolf was obtained in February or March of 1998,
13 right?
14 A To the best of my recollection, yes.
15 Q Why would you have tested it, and maybe
16 you didn't, why would you have tested it against
17 foreign DNA that you had already had a match on from
18 someone else?
19 MR. MILLER: He didn't say he already had
20 a match on. That's why --
21 MR. WOOD: I may have been reading too
22 much in because he made reference to known DNA. And
23 I thought he was -- I was assuming that maybe they
24 had gotten a match and you knew the source.
25 A We have JonBent's DNA; that's known DNA.

126
1 Q (BY MR. WOOD) Right. And then you have
2 foreign DNA?
3 A Yes.
4 Q And the question was has any of the
5 foreign DNA, foreign to JonBen t, you have indicated
6 to me has not been matched to Chris Wolf?
7 A Correct.
8 Q And I asked you had it been matched to
9 anyone and you initially said no; is that correct?
10 A The DNA on her body or clothing, the
11 answer is no; that's right.
12 Q What about the crime scene?
13 A That's what I can't answer.
14 Q But here is the dilemma. I want to know
15 if whatever this we'll call it DNAX, okay, was Chris
16 Wolf's DNA compared to DNAX?
17 MR. MILLER: He answered that yes.
18 A Yes.
19 Q (BY MR. WOOD) Okay.
20 A I can tell you it does not match DNAX.
21 Q Right. At the time that Chris Wolf's DNA
22 was compared to DNAX, had it been compared to any
23 other DNA and found to be a match?
24 A Compared with other -- no, it's not
25 been -- his DNA has not been matched to anything at

127
1 the crime scene.

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  blue fibers
Posted by: jameson245 - 03-23-2017, 05:34 AM - Forum: Fiber and Hair Evidence - Replies (1)

from Mark Beckner's deposition in Wolf v Ramsey

there were blue fibers found on
11 the crime scene?
12 A Yes.
13 Q So do we know whether the fiber test was
14 conducted on the blue cotton sweater and, if so, the
15 results of whether there was any type of consistency
16 in the fibers with the fibers found at the crime
17 scene?
18 A That I don't know.
19 Q Fiber evidence in and of itself would not
20 eliminate any individual as being under suspicion,
21 would it?
22 A In what way?
23 Q In any way.
24 A Well, fiber evidence -- it's not evidence
25 if it's not a match. So what do you mean by

117
1 evidence?
2 Q When you say it's not a match, that's
3 loose. I mean matches are rare in fiber analysis,
4 aren't they? What you generally come up with --
5 A I don't know how rare they --
6 Q -- is consistent with, isn't that what you
7 generally get?
8 A Yes.
9 Q Okay. Because it would take a very unique
10 fiber to say that we can absolutely tell you that
11 this is a match?
12 A Yes.
13 Q That's a very rare, if ever, occurrence,
14 true?
15 A Yes.
16 Q So if I have got Chris Wolf and he's got a
17 blue cotton sweater and he submits that to the
18 authorities and you check and you say, okay, we've
19 got a fiber from this sweater of Mr. Wolf's and it's
20 consistent with the blue cotton fiber that we found
21 at the crime scene, that doesn't tell you that Chris
22 Wolf was involved in the murder, does it?
23 A No.

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  Vassar Professor Donald Foster
Posted by: jameson245 - 03-23-2017, 05:25 AM - Forum: Discredited and discounted witnesses in this case - Replies (16)

See my full page on him at http://www.jameson245.com/foster_page.htm

This is a quote from Police Chief Mark Beckner's deposition in the Wolf v Ramsey lawsuit.

93
1 Chief? The man is -- you've seen the three-page
2 letter. He has staked his career and reputation that
3 Patsy Ramsey didn't write the notes, she is
4 absolutely, unequivocally innocent and that he didn't
5 make those statements without being right and he
6 didn't reveal that information to the Boulder Police
7 Department before you all hired him and paid him
8 taxpayer money, and then he came up with an analysis
9 that said that it was impossible for anyone else to
10 have written the note except for Patsy Ramsey.
11 That contradiction and concealment has to
12 be significant enough that any report he submitted on
13 any other person could not be relied upon by the
14 department because you knew that he would be
15 subjected to having his credibility destroyed; isn't
16 that a fair statement?
17 A That's fair.

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  Steven Pitt
Posted by: jameson245 - 03-23-2017, 05:09 AM - Forum: BORG theories and BORG people of note - Replies (3)

From Beckner deposition in Wolf v Ramsey

80
1 Q There was -- you know who Steven Pitt is?
2 A Yes.
3 Q What was his role?
4 A He was a forensic psychologist that
5 assisted us in the case.
6 Q What would a forensic psychologist bring
7 to the table?
8 A Well, he brings a lot in terms of
9 analyzing behavior, demeanor, statements, advice on
10 how to conduct interviews, advice on what questions
11 to ask, those areas.
12 Q Would he have been involved in a strategy
13 to bring public pressure on a given individual who
14 was under suspicion?
15 MR. MILLER: Objection

long discussion on this - interesting since he appears later in documentaries....

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  Was Beckner BORG?
Posted by: jameson245 - 03-23-2017, 05:02 AM - Forum: BORG theories and BORG people of note - No Replies

from his deposition:

21 Q Would one of the factors in removing Chris
22 Wolf from under the umbrella of suspicion be the fact
23 that the Boulder Police Department had concluded that
24 it was probable that John Ramsey and Patsy Ramsey
25 were involved in the death of their daughter?

70
1 A No, I don't think so.
2 Q For example, if you as the chief of police
3 or as the commander in charge of the Ramsey
4 investigation state to your investigator or
5 investigators, members of your detective team, I
6 believe Patsy Ramsey killed JonBent, would you
7 expect that to have an impact on how that
8 investigator or detective would approach another
9 possible individual under suspicion such as Chris
10 Wolf?
11 A Would I expect it to? No.
12 Q Well, why not? I mean when the chief says
13 I believe Patsy Ramsey did this, how could that not
14 impact the efforts to investigate others?
15 MR. MILLER: Object to the form of the
16 question. Misstates testimony.
17 Q (BY MR. WOOD) Well, maybe I didn't lay
18 the foundation. Have you ever made that statement to
19 another detective in this case?
20 A I don't know, to be honest with you,
21 whether I have said that.
22 Q Well, Steve Thomas says in his book that
23 you did.
24 A Well, I don't know that I have.
25 Q Well, do you deny that?

71
1 A No. I don't know whether I have or not.
2 Q Well, does it sound like something that
3 you would have said to another detective?
4 A It may have been something that was said.
5 We've had, you know, hundreds of conversations about
6 hearings about this case. Maybe, I don't know. I
7 don't recall saying that specifically.
8 Q Well, I mean, Chief, that's not an
9 insignificant statement to come from the chief of
10 police or from the commander of the investigation. I
11 mean is it possible that you may have made similar
12 comments about other individuals?
13 A Sure.
14 Q That you believe some other person other
15 than John or Patsy might have been involved?
16 A Sure.
17 Q Do you have a recollection of doing that?
18 A I have a recollection of challenging
19 detectives in terms of some of the evidence and what
20 it means, sure.
21 Q But I'm really looking more for the
22 specific statement. I mean maybe that's the way, if
23 Thomas is accurate and says that Mark Beckner said I
24 believe Patsy Ramsey killed JonBent, would that have
25 been -- should that be interpreted as a statement of

72
1 your actual belief or is that a way that you might
2 challenge some findings or some information from a
3 detective? I'm not sure I'm following you.
4 A Yeah, because to this day I haven't come
5 to any conclusions on that. So what I would say is
6 it would probably be in the context of discussing
7 different theories about the case.
8 Q Because to this day, you have not
9 concluded yourself that Patsy Ramsey killed JonBen t?
10 A That's correct.

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  info from ...
Posted by: jameson245 - 03-23-2017, 04:56 AM - Forum: Prints - finger and palm - Replies (1)

from Mark Beckner's deposition in Wolf v Ramsey

3 Q (BY MR. WOOD) You indicated, Chief
4 Beckner, that in 1997 with respect to -- late 1997,
5 you submitted some handwriting and possibly some
6 fingerprints to CBI with respect to Chris Wolf.
7 We've covered the handwriting, haven't we, that we
8 talked about earlier that Chet Ubowski gave reports
9 on a couple of occasions?
10 A Yes.
11 Q Now, what about -- you say possibly some
12 fingerprints. Did you in fact obtain fingerprints
13 from Chris Wolf?
14 A Again, I just want to clarify I'm going by
15 memory from almost four years ago. But yes, I recall
16 that we had fingerprints from Chris Wolf.
17 Q And were they submitted to CBI?
18 A Yes.
19 Q For comparisons to what?
20 A To evidence taken at the scene. Any
21 fingerprints that we had, any prints whatsoever that
22 we had at the scene.
23 Q Okay. And did you ever -- well, you go on
24 to say you obtained some handwriting exemplars in
25 1998. That would have been different from the

59
1 initial handwriting?
2 A I believe so. I'm, you know --
3 Q And some palm prints --
4 A -- the best of my recollection.
5 Q Okay. Do you remember what the results
6 were that came back on the fingerprints from CBI with
7 respect to Mr. Wolf?
8 A No match.
9 Q Would I be safe then to say that across
10 the board that would be true?
11 A Yes.
12 Q If you had a match from someone you
13 wouldn't have expected to be in the house, we would
14 probably all know about it.
15 The palm print, again, you took a palm
16 print left and right from Mr. Wolf, submitted those
17 to CBI?
18 A I know we took palm prints.
19 Q Were they submitted to CBI?
20 A Yes.
21 Q Again, for comparison to what you believe
22 were palm prints taken from the crime scene?
23 A Yes.
24 Q Did you take both the left and the right
25 hand palm print from Mr. Wolf?

60
1 A I don't know for sure.
2 Q Do you know what you would have expected
3 to be done in that regard?
4 A Both, I would have expected.

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