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  Her first interview with BPD
Posted by: jameson245 - 09-22-2017, 05:29 PM - Forum: Nancy Krebs - Replies (4)

BOULDER POLICE DEPARTMENT

DETECTIVE DIVISION

TO. Commander Joe Pelle
District Attorney's Office

FROM. Det. Tom Trujillo

DATE. 2/22/00

TIME.

RE. P96-21871

PRESENT. A. Det. Tom Trujillo
B. Det. Chuck Heidel
C. Lee Hill
D. Nancy Krebs
E. Alex Hunter

(Tape 1 of 3 tape interview.)

C. (inaudible) the same generation even though 3 years older

D. (inaudible) you were quick

C. That's (inaudible) baby book

D. (inaudible)

C. About your but I think that my focus um initially (inaudible) clarify the context (inaudible) subjected here to control (inaudible) dominance, subjugation. and abuse-(inaudible) participating. continuous participating and then uh

B. (inaudible) before we start, here's my card

C. Thank you very much (inaudible)

B. Tom's on his way over

C. Thank you when he gets here we'll walk you through that I mean !(inaudible)

B. Okay no that's fine) that's fine, actually I'll be following Tom's lead but what I would like to do on this while we're waiting here I can get some preliminary information from you

P96-21871

Nancy, your name and date of birth and all that stuff

D. Okay

B. It is Nancy right

D. Uh-huh

B. Okay, do you have a middle name Nancy

D. Jo J O

B. J 0, okay

D. And my last name is Krebs K R E B S

B. K R E E

D. No KREBS

B. B S Krebs okay, and your birthday

D. 4/25/62

B. How tall are you and how much do you weigh

D. Uh about 5'5"

B. Okay

D. And I weigh last time 142

B. 142

C. That's okay

B. Brown hair and

D. I have blue eyes

B. And what's your current address

D. Uh in California

P96-21871 3

B. Uh

C. Yes

B. Why don't you give me all the addresses where you can be contacted

D. Okay

B. If that's what we need

D. . XXXX

B. Okay

C. (inaudible)

A. Tom Trujillo

D. XXXX

B. okay I'm just getting some preliminary information

C. Nancy Krebs, Det. Tom Trujillo

D. Hi

A. Nancy how you doing

D. Fine

B. (inaudible ) -..

D. Uh-huh

B. And that in

D. Los Osos

C. Los Osos, okay

D. Right

C. Capital O

B. Right

P.9G-21B71 4

C. The first one

B. Los Osos

D. Uh-huh

B. Osos okay and what’s the uh zip code

D. XXXX

B. Okay and a phone number

D. Um-

B. XXXX okay there was another address

D. Just through office

(Recording went dead at this point.)

B. Huh, aw well it's (inaudible) of technology

A. Okay~ this is for the recording here um. what you've shown me so far is is copies of your baby book and some photographs including photos of Fleet White Sr. and then some photographs of Fleet White Jr.'s children

D. Yeah and there should

A. Connect

D. Be a…actual… a picture of Fleet White

C. (inaudible)

D. At his wedding.

A. Okay, and where did these photographs come from, I mean the ones (inaudible) obviously but where did these other photographs come from

D. From my grandma’s um photo album

A. Okay and that's still out in California

D. Yeah

P96-21871 5

A. Okay~ now this photo, there's a video of these photographs is that correct is that what this is

C. None none of these videos of other family photographs and correspondence

D. Oh there it is

A. Okay okay so this is Fleet White Jr’s wedding picture

D. Uh-huh

A. Okay, you can pull that one out, and who were the people again that photograph hard to see um kind of from left to right who's this female in the white shirt

D. Let me see

A. A white dress

D. Can I look at it

A. Sure

D. It's a little bit hard, that's uh Nyla

A. Okay, which would be Fleet White's

D. Mother

A. Okay

D. Fleet White Jr., his wife Priscilla, his father

A. Okay

D. And his sister Loni

A. Okay, and the original photograph is out in California

D. Right

A. Okay, so I need to pull this out, if you don't mind

B. For the record that was from a page 20 from a

P96-2187l 6

C. Fax

B. From a fax right

D. Uh-huh

B. Is that what that was from

A. Okay so

D. And this is uh this is a horrible picture (inaudible) uh the quality of it but this is a picture of Fleet White Jr. and Fleet and that's a picture of little Fleet

A. Okay so this is Fleet White Jr ., one who is currently in Boulder

D. Right

A. And his son

D. Right

A. Okay, and that's on page (inaudible) hard to tell 16

B. Looks like page 16 from the fax copy from

A. And then these other photographs uh the other pages of photographs um one's not numbered uh but these are all family photographs of Fleet White's…Fleet White Jr's children, where were these taken at

D. Um

A. Have any idea

D. Well it it says right here, it's written on there that this is before they moved to Colorado

A. Okay

D. And that they were 5 and 3 1/2 years old

A. Okay

D. And that they were taken at a children's museum in Tennessee

A. Okay, very good, that kind of that way I can go back and try to figure out what's what as far

P96-21871

as all these photos go, okay, and then you have this greetings from Fleet and Nyla that would be Fleet White Sr.

D. Right ,

A. And his wife and who are the two children in there

D. Uh Fleet White I guess, he's really Fleet White III

A. Okay

D. And Daphne

A. Got it and that was taken in Aspen in 1997

D. Right

A. Okay

D. Was sent,

A. So on the video tape is another photograph

D. Uh-huh

A. Is that right, okay, um so I guess I guess there's some sort of a connection between you and the White families. Fleet White Sr., Fleet White Jr., I understand that, uh let's start kinda back in the beginning it's probably the easiest way i

D. Okay, can we read this forst

A. Sure

D. I think (inaudible)

A. What what

D. Um

A. What is this

P96-21871

D. It's a it's a letter to my grandmother

A. Uh-huh

D. From uh Nyla White

A. Okay

D. And I think it has some significance because it talks about how uh they would spend Christmases with my mom

A. Uh-huh

D. And my grandmother (Very long pause) (50 sec pause)

A. And Gordon is

D. It's my grandpa that passed away

(Long pause) (20 sec pause)

A. I'm. it talks about Fleet and Loni, would be Fleet White Jr.

D. Uh-huh

A. Okay

(Long pause) (25 sec pause)

D. (inaudible). when will she (inaudible) communication

C. Huh

D. (inaudible)

C. (inaudible)

A. Okay, that's fine (inaudible) ~ so let's start back let's (inaudible) start back as far as you can first remember um your family and the White's family being together, when was that

D. Probably when I was about 3 years old

P96-21871 ! 9

A. Okay, so the White's have been um friends of your parents, grandparents

D. Both

A. For many, many years

D. Yes

A. Okay, um where did you guys live at that time

D. Where did I live

A. Yeah where did you live

D. I lived in Buena Park

A. Okay, and Fleet White Sr. was good friends with your grandfather, is that correct

D. And my grandma

A. And your grandma

D. Both

A. Okay, and where did the Fleet White Sr. live at that time

D. In Hunt, not Hunt, in Long Beach

A. Long Beach okay

D. Uh-huh !

A. Um kinda kinda bring me up to date just a little bit um you know how you kept in touch With the White family, that sort of thing and then talk about go into a little bit more detail if you would (inaudible) kind kind of tell me throughout the years you know I mean have you kept in touch with the Whites, have you have you communicated with the Whites I mean obviously there's communications from 1997 uh but kinda start back from when you first remember and go forward and kinda give me an idea of… of a your contacts with the Whites

D. And like …

A. Just general contacts

D. Well that's really hard to do because I would say that my contacts weren’t 'general contacts

P96-21871 10

with them

A. Okay, um I mean did you cause it talks about it a little bit um Christmas time, that sort of thing, let's start there um I mean I understand there's some other things some subtle things goin' on in this letter but kinda generally and how often would the Whites visit you guys, your grandparents, your parents that sort of thing .

D. Very often

A. Okay, daily, weekly

D. Uh I would say at holidays

A. Okay

D. Christmas, Easter um and uh birthdays, like my grandpa's birthday or my grandma's birthday or

A. Okay so

D. Fleet Senior's birthday or Nyla's birthday

A. Okay so generally and and let's talk about, let's break the families up into… there's too many Fleets here

C. Uh-huh

A. I want let's let's break the family up into Fleet White Sr. um and Nyla corrrect

D. Uh uh-huh

A. Um they would visit your folks or your grandparents

D. My grandparents

A. Okay so Fleet White Sr. and Nyla would visit your grandparents on on the average, the major holidays throughout the years is that what you're saying um Christmas, Easter, and birthdays

D. Birthdays uh-huh

A. Okay any any other times that

D. I'm sure there were other times but I don't know exact dates it would be real hard for me to give exact dates from that point or

P96-21871

A. That's fine that's fine, um when did Fleet White Jr. start comin' into the.picture

D. Well he was always in the picture

A. Right as, what I mean is he's comin' over with Fleet White Sr., when did Fleet White Jr. um I mean is he (inaudible) is he good friends with your grandparents or good friends with your parents both

D. Both

A. Okay okay um kinda as a time reference here, when when did the assaults start, actually who who started the assaults, Fleet White Sr. or Fleet White Jr., the assaults on you

D. Uh Fleet, on me

A. Uh-huh

D. Fleet White Sr.

A. Okay, kinda as a reference, time reference, when do you first remember those starting

D. Around the age of 3 but closer to 4

A. Okay 3 to 4 years old

D. Oh-huh

A. Okay, and where would those occur at

D. Um sometimes at my grandparent's house

A. Okay

D. Oh sometimes at different locations

A. Okay, when they occurred at your grandparent's house, is that over one of these holiday type weekend type things

D. Uh-huh

A. Um that the Whites would be present at

D. Yes

P96-21871 12

A. Okay um, who all was present, 1 mean during those holidays obviously Fleet White Sr. and Nyla uh Fleet White Jr., any other children present

D. Loni

A. Okay, and Loni is

D. Fleet White's sister

A. Okay and who else

D. Uh myself

A. Uh-huh

D. And um my sister would have only been about a year old

A. Okay, were all the children involved in the assaults or was it just you so specifically was Loni there um was your little sister involved

D. At a year and a half, I don't remember

A. Uh-huh

D. Her being there doing anything to my sister at that time

A. Okay

D. Um but Fleet, I don't remember anything with Loni either

A. Okay

D. But I do remember things with uh Fleet White Jr.

A. Okay um

D. Who woulda been about 15 or 16 years old

A. Okay was Fleet White Jr. the victim of these assaults, or was he a suspect in the assaults, Was he a perpetrator when when you can first remember the assaults when he was pressent

D. I think that he was made to do things to me

A. Okay

P96-21871

D. So I don't know if you want to call that a perpetrator or

A. Okay, he was one of the actors in the assaults

D. Uh-huh

A. Okay um Loni wasn't involved in this that .you can remember

D. I mean she coulda been in a different place

A. Okay

D. Having things done to her

A. Okay, um and you started going through time um start movin' forward, do you ever remember your sis your sister, younger sister bein' involved or being the victim of these assaults

D. Yes

A. Okay

D. Uh-huh

A. When's the first recollection that that occurred

D. Uh...probably when I was about 6 years old

D. Uh 10 old, your sister's a year and a half younger than you

A. Okay uh

D. Uh-huh

A. Okay and what's your sister's name

D. XXXX last name now.

A. And XXXX

D. XXXX

A. XXXX

D. XXXX

P96-21871

A. And where's XXXX livin' right now

D. Germany

A. How come she's out in Germany

D. Uh she transferred

A. She

D. From Arvada to Germany

A. Arvada Arvada, Colorado

D. Yeah

A. Oh she was a local person

D. For a while

A. Okay is she in the military or anything

D. She's a civilian but works for the military

A. With the military

D. Uh-huh

A. Which branch of government is she in

D. Um. XXXX

A. Okay.; how old is she right now

D. 35

A. Okay, I want to come back to XXXX in just a little bit, so the first time you kinda remember um XXXX also being a victim of these sex assaults, cause when you were 6 that made XXX about 4 and 1/2

D. Uh-huh

A. That right, and where was that at again kinda generally which

P96-21871

D. Well I (inaudible) I uh

A. (inaudible) occurred

D. I would say probably my grandparent's house

A. Okay, did anything ever occur at your mom and dad's house

D. Yes, uh-huh

A. Okay, tell me about, let's start with some of the things that may

D. Can

A. Have occurred at mom and dad's, go ahead

D. Can I say something cause

A. Sure

D. I have to do this, um and this is really important um my grandfather

A. Uh-huh

D. Died on his birthday February 6, 1966

A. Okay

D. And the Whites were attending a party and uh what I remember about that is that my grandpa was trying to protect me

A. Uh-huh

D. And that Fleet Sr. and my grandpa were in a screaming match, yelling and screaming at each other and my grandpa had a massive heart attack

A. Okay, and this is fact

D. And died and that's really important

A. This was at his birthday, your grandpa's birthday

D. Uh-huh

P96-21871

A. Okay, who

D. And I just, I remember an argument happening and I don't remember what was being said cause I was only, I was almost 4 years old then

A. Uh-huh

D. And I remember my grandpa grabbin his chest and falling to the ground

A. Okay, I'm sorry, do you remember what the argument was about

D. No

A. Just that they were screaming

D. Something about…that they were screaming that Fleet had got out he was tryin' to tough me or something and my grandpa just got really upset

A. Uh-huh

D. For some reason and they had a screaming match

A. Okay and this is Fleet Sr.

D. Right

A. Okay, um did you talk to your grandma about this at all, who else have you talked to about all these assaults

D. I haven't talked to my grandmother about that

A. Okay, uh have you talked to your mom or dad about either one of these, and of the assaults or anything

D. About any of the assaults, a lot of times there where there so I wouldn't have to talk to them about it

A. Okay and I guess that's what's (inaudible) I'm not understanding a 100% so your mom and dad were present in the room during the assaults…or they were just there in the house during the assaults

D. My mom




P96-21871

A. Does that make sense

D. Yeah. well they were often present during the assaults

A. Okay so your mom and dad both knew about what was occurring

D. Yes

A. Okay um and they knew, what was occurring to both you and your sister

D. Yes

A. Okay, were they a part of this

D. Yes

A. Okay. how were they a part of the assaults

D. Well they let them happen

A. Okay. um did your did your father physically assault you at all

D. Yeah

A. Sexually assault you

D. (inaudible) things about my dad

A. Okay, um

D. Wrapping me up in blankets. keeping the blankets really tight so I couldn't get out of it

A. Okay

D. Um I can remember being whipped belts. and I would uh pee in my bed or something like that

A. Okay so were your mom and dad, the assaults, were they limited to the kind of physical assault type thing. physical and mental assaults um or did they also include sexual assaults

D. They also included sexual assaults

A (inaudible)

P96-21871

D. And uh my mom…was that she would actually sometimes take me to places and witness things that have happened to me

A. Okay what do you mean take you to places

D. Like- take me over to the Whites

A. Okay

D. Or the there were other locations that they would take me to

A. Okay okay so your mom was physically active in actually kind of giving you to the Whites is that what I'm hearing

D. Right

A. Okay, and this is this started with Fleet White Sr.

D. Yes

A. When did Fleet White Jr. get involved other than when he was kind of a participant at 16 um when did he kinda physically take over become involved in this

D. When he was doing it willingly is that what

A. Yeah

D. You're asking me

A. Yeah .

D.………….need to think

A. Okay

D. And probably when I was around 7 ~ 8 years old

A. Okay, that's when he kinda became an active participant on his own as it were

D. Uh-huh, uh~huh

A. Okay, um when's your birthday

D. 4/25

P96-21871

A. 62

D. 62

A. Okay, uh

D. And Fleet White is 50 years old

A. Okay, so he's about

D. 13

A. 12 years older than you. 13 years older than you

D. Uh-huh

A. Okay um let me let me back up for just a second, we talked about Fleet White Sr. and we talked about Fleet White Jr. um and unfortunately let's define assaults I do you remember were they kind of a fondling. touching type of an assault or did they go beyond that

D. No they went beyond that

A. Okay for both Fleet White Sr. and Jr.

D. Yes

A. Okay, um. tell me how far they went beyond that is it um

D. Penetration and

A. Okay, like digital penetration with their fingers

D. No penetration with their penises

A. Okay. um vaginally

D. Yes

A. What about anally

D. Yeah

A. Okay so penetration both orifices

P96-21871

D. Uh-huh

A. Okay, what about oral sex

D. Oral copulation

A. Okay um where they made you un they placed their penis into you into your mouth, that sort of thing

D. Uh-huh

A. Okay and we're talkin' about both Fleet Sr. and Jr. doing this

D. Yeah

A. Okay uh when was the last time this occurred ,

D. Last time?

A. Uh, the most recent

D. The last time that I can remember Fleet White Sr. was when uh he came to my grandparents house in Cayucos

A. Cayucos, where's that

D. It's in California I

A. Okay

D. And it's about 5 miles from my home

A. Okay and when was that

D. Um, can I look

A. Sure anything that will help you

B. While you're at it, how do you spell Cayucos

D. CAYUCOS

A. Okay

P96-21871

D. The ninth of August 1980

A. Okay, and what's what are we looking here

D. That's uh the will of my grandfather

A. Uh-huh

D. And um it's um Fleet White’s signature as a witness and Nyla White. as a witness too

A. Okay and this is in it's hard to read the date 19…

D. 80

A. August 1980

D. Uh-huh

B. (inaudible)

A. Is that, that's supposed to be an 80

D. I think it

A. 19

D. Actually I think it should be a 90

A. 1990

D. Yeah

A. Okay and this is when Fleet White Jr. and his mom

D. No this is Fleet White Sr.

A. Okay this is Fleet White Sr., so the last sex assault that occurred to you by Fleet White Sr. .was back in August of 1990

D. Right

A. Is that right trying to get some of these straight and that’s after this photo it’s kind of a two page photocopy that rolls over, it's a it's supposed to be a legal size document Lee (inaudible )

P96-21871

C. (inaudible) I just received it on a fax machine and I assume it's the standard (inaudible)

A. (inaudible)

C. (inaudible) will

A. Okay, um when is the last time that Fleet White Jr. um was a suspect, when was the last time he did any type of sexual assault on you

D. Uh the best that I can remember it would have

A. We want you to .remember

D. Okay, it would had of been between uh 1976 and 1978

A. Okay, and where would that have occurred at

D. In Trona, California, Trona T R O N A

A. Okay, uh so '76 to '78…um…the kind there's there's kind of a big skip, I mean Fleet White Jr. stops in '78, um Senior doesn't stop until '90, were you around Fleet white Jr. between '78 and '90, have you been around him at all

D. I've seen him

A. Okay seen him like I mean like on TV or seen him personally

D. No in a more in a more casual setting at my aunt and uncle's house in Bakersfield

A. Okay, when was the last time you saw Fleet White Jr. in Bakersfield or saw at all

D. Uh woulda been in probably around in the .8O's mid mid 8Os

A. Okay um that's kind of a casual you just got kind of a casual atmosphere

D. Uh-huh

A. Uh

D. Where Fleet and Priscilla had come to visit my uh uncle

A. Okay

P96-21871

D. And Aunt in Bakersfield

A. But there wasn't any type of assault on you at that time

D. No

A. Okay um ...any reason why Fleet White Jr. stopped the assaults back in '78 I guess (inaudible)

D. We1l..."um I think because it……it had gotten to a point where I was being abused so much that um people were noticing things where I was going to school

A. Uh-huh

D. And they reported that there was some child abuse going on

A. Okay

D. And at that point in time I went to uh sex investigation and then later uh they went to a preliminary hearing and then the person um pleaded no contest to statutory rape and sodomy

A. Okay um we just pulled out a photograph of a person in Inyo County

D. Inyo

A. I N Y O County um Independence, California is that right

D. Right

A. Okay let's, who who's who's this a photograph of

D. Mackey Boykin

A. MACKY

D. Well he spelled it different ways

A. Okay

D. MACKIE or MACKEY

A. Okay...,Boykin

P96-21871

D. Uh-huh BOYKIN

A. Okay and when was this when was this booking photo taken

D. In '80

A. 1980

D. I think it says one or is that 81

A. It's hard to okay '80, '81 something like that; now how does how does Mackie fit into all this; who's Mackie

D. Mackie was uh my stepfather's brother

A. Okay

D. But not at the time that this was going on, he was my mom, when she was married to my dad

A. Uh-huh

D. Had several men that would come over to our house and Mackie's brother Mackie's sister Lived down the street from us in Buena Park

A. Okay, let let me back up just a little, what's your mom's name

D. Gwen

A. Got that G W

D. EN

A. E N and Boykin

D. BOYKIN

A. What's your real father's name

D. Don

A. Last. name

D. Krebs (inaudible) yeah

Print this item

  Her first interview with BPD
Posted by: jameson245 - 09-22-2017, 05:29 PM - Forum: Nancy Krebs - No Replies

BOULDER POLICE DEPARTMENT

DETECTIVE DIVISION

TO. Commander Joe Pelle
District Attorney's Office

FROM. Det. Tom Trujillo

DATE. 2/22/00

TIME.

RE. P96-21871

PRESENT. A. Det. Tom Trujillo
B. Det. Chuck Heidel
C. Lee Hill
D. Nancy Krebs
E. Alex Hunter

(Tape 1 of 3 tape interview.)

C. (inaudible) the same generation even though 3 years older

D. (inaudible) you were quick

C. That's (inaudible) baby book

D. (inaudible)

C. About your but I think that my focus um initially (inaudible) clarify the context (inaudible) subjected here to control (inaudible) dominance, subjugation. and abuse-(inaudible) participating. continuous participating and then uh

B. (inaudible) before we start, here's my card

C. Thank you very much (inaudible)

B. Tom's on his way over

C. Thank you when he gets here we'll walk you through that I mean !(inaudible)

B. Okay no that's fine) that's fine, actually I'll be following Tom's lead but what I would like to do on this while we're waiting here I can get some preliminary information from you

P96-21871

Nancy, your name and date of birth and all that stuff

D. Okay

B. It is Nancy right

D. Uh-huh

B. Okay, do you have a middle name Nancy

D. Jo J O

B. J 0, okay

D. And my last name is Krebs K R E B S

B. K R E E

D. No KREBS

B. B S Krebs okay, and your birthday

D. 4/25/62

B. How tall are you and how much do you weigh

D. Uh about 5'5"

B. Okay

D. And I weigh last time 142

B. 142

C. That's okay

B. Brown hair and

D. I have blue eyes

B. And what's your current address

D. Uh in California

P96-21871 3

B. Uh

C. Yes

B. Why don't you give me all the addresses where you can be contacted

D. Okay

B. If that's what we need

D. . XXXX

B. Okay

C. (inaudible)

A. Tom Trujillo

D. XXXX

B. okay I'm just getting some preliminary information

C. Nancy Krebs, Det. Tom Trujillo

D. Hi

A. Nancy how you doing

D. Fine

B. (inaudible ) -..

D. Uh-huh

B. And that in

D. Los Osos

C. Los Osos, okay

D. Right

C. Capital O

B. Right

P.9G-21B71 4

C. The first one

B. Los Osos

D. Uh-huh

B. Osos okay and what’s the uh zip code

D. XXXX

B. Okay and a phone number

D. Um-

B. XXXX okay there was another address

D. Just through office

(Recording went dead at this point.)

B. Huh, aw well it's (inaudible) of technology

A. Okay~ this is for the recording here um. what you've shown me so far is is copies of your baby book and some photographs including photos of Fleet White Sr. and then some photographs of Fleet White Jr.'s children

D. Yeah and there should

A. Connect

D. Be a…actual… a picture of Fleet White

C. (inaudible)

D. At his wedding.

A. Okay, and where did these photographs come from, I mean the ones (inaudible) obviously but where did these other photographs come from

D. From my grandma’s um photo album

A. Okay and that's still out in California

D. Yeah

P96-21871 5

A. Okay~ now this photo, there's a video of these photographs is that correct is that what this is

C. None none of these videos of other family photographs and correspondence

D. Oh there it is

A. Okay okay so this is Fleet White Jr’s wedding picture

D. Uh-huh

A. Okay, you can pull that one out, and who were the people again that photograph hard to see um kind of from left to right who's this female in the white shirt

D. Let me see

A. A white dress

D. Can I look at it

A. Sure

D. It's a little bit hard, that's uh Nyla

A. Okay, which would be Fleet White's

D. Mother

A. Okay

D. Fleet White Jr., his wife Priscilla, his father

A. Okay

D. And his sister Loni

A. Okay, and the original photograph is out in California

D. Right

A. Okay, so I need to pull this out, if you don't mind

B. For the record that was from a page 20 from a

P96-2187l 6

C. Fax

B. From a fax right

D. Uh-huh

B. Is that what that was from

A. Okay so

D. And this is uh this is a horrible picture (inaudible) uh the quality of it but this is a picture of Fleet White Jr. and Fleet and that's a picture of little Fleet

A. Okay so this is Fleet White Jr ., one who is currently in Boulder

D. Right

A. And his son

D. Right

A. Okay, and that's on page (inaudible) hard to tell 16

B. Looks like page 16 from the fax copy from

A. And then these other photographs uh the other pages of photographs um one's not numbered uh but these are all family photographs of Fleet White's…Fleet White Jr's children, where were these taken at

D. Um

A. Have any idea

D. Well it it says right here, it's written on there that this is before they moved to Colorado

A. Okay

D. And that they were 5 and 3 1/2 years old

A. Okay

D. And that they were taken at a children's museum in Tennessee

A. Okay, very good, that kind of that way I can go back and try to figure out what's what as far

P96-21871

as all these photos go, okay, and then you have this greetings from Fleet and Nyla that would be Fleet White Sr.

D. Right ,

A. And his wife and who are the two children in there

D. Uh Fleet White I guess, he's really Fleet White III

A. Okay

D. And Daphne

A. Got it and that was taken in Aspen in 1997

D. Right

A. Okay

D. Was sent,

A. So on the video tape is another photograph

D. Uh-huh

A. Is that right, okay, um so I guess I guess there's some sort of a connection between you and the White families. Fleet White Sr., Fleet White Jr., I understand that, uh let's start kinda back in the beginning it's probably the easiest way i

D. Okay, can we read this forst

A. Sure

D. I think (inaudible)

A. What what

D. Um

A. What is this

P96-21871

D. It's a it's a letter to my grandmother

A. Uh-huh

D. From uh Nyla White

A. Okay

D. And I think it has some significance because it talks about how uh they would spend Christmases with my mom

A. Uh-huh

D. And my grandmother (Very long pause) (50 sec pause)

A. And Gordon is

D. It's my grandpa that passed away

(Long pause) (20 sec pause)

A. I'm. it talks about Fleet and Loni, would be Fleet White Jr.

D. Uh-huh

A. Okay

(Long pause) (25 sec pause)

D. (inaudible). when will she (inaudible) communication

C. Huh

D. (inaudible)

C. (inaudible)

A. Okay, that's fine (inaudible) ~ so let's start back let's (inaudible) start back as far as you can first remember um your family and the White's family being together, when was that

D. Probably when I was about 3 years old

P96-21871 ! 9

A. Okay, so the White's have been um friends of your parents, grandparents

D. Both

A. For many, many years

D. Yes

A. Okay, um where did you guys live at that time

D. Where did I live

A. Yeah where did you live

D. I lived in Buena Park

A. Okay, and Fleet White Sr. was good friends with your grandfather, is that correct

D. And my grandma

A. And your grandma

D. Both

A. Okay, and where did the Fleet White Sr. live at that time

D. In Hunt, not Hunt, in Long Beach

A. Long Beach okay

D. Uh-huh !

A. Um kinda kinda bring me up to date just a little bit um you know how you kept in touch With the White family, that sort of thing and then talk about go into a little bit more detail if you would (inaudible) kind kind of tell me throughout the years you know I mean have you kept in touch with the Whites, have you have you communicated with the Whites I mean obviously there's communications from 1997 uh but kinda start back from when you first remember and go forward and kinda give me an idea of… of a your contacts with the Whites

D. And like …

A. Just general contacts

D. Well that's really hard to do because I would say that my contacts weren’t 'general contacts

P96-21871 10

with them

A. Okay, um I mean did you cause it talks about it a little bit um Christmas time, that sort of thing, let's start there um I mean I understand there's some other things some subtle things goin' on in this letter but kinda generally and how often would the Whites visit you guys, your grandparents, your parents that sort of thing .

D. Very often

A. Okay, daily, weekly

D. Uh I would say at holidays

A. Okay

D. Christmas, Easter um and uh birthdays, like my grandpa's birthday or my grandma's birthday or

A. Okay so

D. Fleet Senior's birthday or Nyla's birthday

A. Okay so generally and and let's talk about, let's break the families up into… there's too many Fleets here

C. Uh-huh

A. I want let's let's break the family up into Fleet White Sr. um and Nyla corrrect

D. Uh uh-huh

A. Um they would visit your folks or your grandparents

D. My grandparents

A. Okay so Fleet White Sr. and Nyla would visit your grandparents on on the average, the major holidays throughout the years is that what you're saying um Christmas, Easter, and birthdays

D. Birthdays uh-huh

A. Okay any any other times that

D. I'm sure there were other times but I don't know exact dates it would be real hard for me to give exact dates from that point or

P96-21871

A. That's fine that's fine, um when did Fleet White Jr. start comin' into the.picture

D. Well he was always in the picture

A. Right as, what I mean is he's comin' over with Fleet White Sr., when did Fleet White Jr. um I mean is he (inaudible) is he good friends with your grandparents or good friends with your parents both

D. Both

A. Okay okay um kinda as a time reference here, when when did the assaults start, actually who who started the assaults, Fleet White Sr. or Fleet White Jr., the assaults on you

D. Uh Fleet, on me

A. Uh-huh

D. Fleet White Sr.

A. Okay, kinda as a reference, time reference, when do you first remember those starting

D. Around the age of 3 but closer to 4

A. Okay 3 to 4 years old

D. Oh-huh

A. Okay, and where would those occur at

D. Um sometimes at my grandparent's house

A. Okay

D. Oh sometimes at different locations

A. Okay, when they occurred at your grandparent's house, is that over one of these holiday type weekend type things

D. Uh-huh

A. Um that the Whites would be present at

D. Yes

P96-21871 12

A. Okay um, who all was present, 1 mean during those holidays obviously Fleet White Sr. and Nyla uh Fleet White Jr., any other children present

D. Loni

A. Okay, and Loni is

D. Fleet White's sister

A. Okay and who else

D. Uh myself

A. Uh-huh

D. And um my sister would have only been about a year old

A. Okay, were all the children involved in the assaults or was it just you so specifically was Loni there um was your little sister involved

D. At a year and a half, I don't remember

A. Uh-huh

D. Her being there doing anything to my sister at that time

A. Okay

D. Um but Fleet, I don't remember anything with Loni either

A. Okay

D. But I do remember things with uh Fleet White Jr.

A. Okay um

D. Who woulda been about 15 or 16 years old

A. Okay was Fleet White Jr. the victim of these assaults, or was he a suspect in the assaults, Was he a perpetrator when when you can first remember the assaults when he was pressent

D. I think that he was made to do things to me

A. Okay

P96-21871

D. So I don't know if you want to call that a perpetrator or

A. Okay, he was one of the actors in the assaults

D. Uh-huh

A. Okay um Loni wasn't involved in this that .you can remember

D. I mean she coulda been in a different place

A. Okay

D. Having things done to her

A. Okay, um and you started going through time um start movin' forward, do you ever remember your sis your sister, younger sister bein' involved or being the victim of these assaults

D. Yes

A. Okay

D. Uh-huh

A. When's the first recollection that that occurred

D. Uh...probably when I was about 6 years old

D. Uh 10 old, your sister's a year and a half younger than you

A. Okay uh

D. Uh-huh

A. Okay and what's your sister's name

D. XXXX last name now.

A. And XXXX

D. XXXX

A. XXXX

D. XXXX

P96-21871

A. And where's XXXX livin' right now

D. Germany

A. How come she's out in Germany

D. Uh she transferred

A. She

D. From Arvada to Germany

A. Arvada Arvada, Colorado

D. Yeah

A. Oh she was a local person

D. For a while

A. Okay is she in the military or anything

D. She's a civilian but works for the military

A. With the military

D. Uh-huh

A. Which branch of government is she in

D. Um. XXXX

A. Okay.; how old is she right now

D. 35

A. Okay, I want to come back to XXXX in just a little bit, so the first time you kinda remember um XXXX also being a victim of these sex assaults, cause when you were 6 that made XXX about 4 and 1/2

D. Uh-huh

A. That right, and where was that at again kinda generally which

P96-21871

D. Well I (inaudible) I uh

A. (inaudible) occurred

D. I would say probably my grandparent's house

A. Okay, did anything ever occur at your mom and dad's house

D. Yes, uh-huh

A. Okay, tell me about, let's start with some of the things that may

D. Can

A. Have occurred at mom and dad's, go ahead

D. Can I say something cause

A. Sure

D. I have to do this, um and this is really important um my grandfather

A. Uh-huh

D. Died on his birthday February 6, 1966

A. Okay

D. And the Whites were attending a party and uh what I remember about that is that my grandpa was trying to protect me

A. Uh-huh

D. And that Fleet Sr. and my grandpa were in a screaming match, yelling and screaming at each other and my grandpa had a massive heart attack

A. Okay, and this is fact

D. And died and that's really important

A. This was at his birthday, your grandpa's birthday

D. Uh-huh

P96-21871

A. Okay, who

D. And I just, I remember an argument happening and I don't remember what was being said cause I was only, I was almost 4 years old then

A. Uh-huh

D. And I remember my grandpa grabbin his chest and falling to the ground

A. Okay, I'm sorry, do you remember what the argument was about

D. No

A. Just that they were screaming

D. Something about…that they were screaming that Fleet had got out he was tryin' to tough me or something and my grandpa just got really upset

A. Uh-huh

D. For some reason and they had a screaming match

A. Okay and this is Fleet Sr.

D. Right

A. Okay, um did you talk to your grandma about this at all, who else have you talked to about all these assaults

D. I haven't talked to my grandmother about that

A. Okay, uh have you talked to your mom or dad about either one of these, and of the assaults or anything

D. About any of the assaults, a lot of times there where there so I wouldn't have to talk to them about it

A. Okay and I guess that's what's (inaudible) I'm not understanding a 100% so your mom and dad were present in the room during the assaults…or they were just there in the house during the assaults

D. My mom




P96-21871

A. Does that make sense

D. Yeah. well they were often present during the assaults

A. Okay so your mom and dad both knew about what was occurring

D. Yes

A. Okay um and they knew, what was occurring to both you and your sister

D. Yes

A. Okay, were they a part of this

D. Yes

A. Okay. how were they a part of the assaults

D. Well they let them happen

A. Okay. um did your did your father physically assault you at all

D. Yeah

A. Sexually assault you

D. (inaudible) things about my dad

A. Okay, um

D. Wrapping me up in blankets. keeping the blankets really tight so I couldn't get out of it

A. Okay

D. Um I can remember being whipped belts. and I would uh pee in my bed or something like that

A. Okay so were your mom and dad, the assaults, were they limited to the kind of physical assault type thing. physical and mental assaults um or did they also include sexual assaults

D. They also included sexual assaults

A (inaudible)

P96-21871

D. And uh my mom…was that she would actually sometimes take me to places and witness things that have happened to me

A. Okay what do you mean take you to places

D. Like- take me over to the Whites

A. Okay

D. Or the there were other locations that they would take me to

A. Okay okay so your mom was physically active in actually kind of giving you to the Whites is that what I'm hearing

D. Right

A. Okay, and this is this started with Fleet White Sr.

D. Yes

A. When did Fleet White Jr. get involved other than when he was kind of a participant at 16 um when did he kinda physically take over become involved in this

D. When he was doing it willingly is that what

A. Yeah

D. You're asking me

A. Yeah .

D.………….need to think

A. Okay

D. And probably when I was around 7 ~ 8 years old

A. Okay, that's when he kinda became an active participant on his own as it were

D. Uh-huh, uh~huh

A. Okay, um when's your birthday

D. 4/25

P96-21871

A. 62

D. 62

A. Okay, uh

D. And Fleet White is 50 years old

A. Okay, so he's about

D. 13

A. 12 years older than you. 13 years older than you

D. Uh-huh

A. Okay um let me let me back up for just a second, we talked about Fleet White Sr. and we talked about Fleet White Jr. um and unfortunately let's define assaults I do you remember were they kind of a fondling. touching type of an assault or did they go beyond that

D. No they went beyond that

A. Okay for both Fleet White Sr. and Jr.

D. Yes

A. Okay, um. tell me how far they went beyond that is it um

D. Penetration and

A. Okay, like digital penetration with their fingers

D. No penetration with their penises

A. Okay. um vaginally

D. Yes

A. What about anally

D. Yeah

A. Okay so penetration both orifices

P96-21871

D. Uh-huh

A. Okay, what about oral sex

D. Oral copulation

A. Okay um where they made you un they placed their penis into you into your mouth, that sort of thing

D. Uh-huh

A. Okay and we're talkin' about both Fleet Sr. and Jr. doing this

D. Yeah

A. Okay uh when was the last time this occurred ,

D. Last time?

A. Uh, the most recent

D. The last time that I can remember Fleet White Sr. was when uh he came to my grandparents house in Cayucos

A. Cayucos, where's that

D. It's in California I

A. Okay

D. And it's about 5 miles from my home

A. Okay and when was that

D. Um, can I look

A. Sure anything that will help you

B. While you're at it, how do you spell Cayucos

D. CAYUCOS

A. Okay

P96-21871

D. The ninth of August 1980

A. Okay, and what's what are we looking here

D. That's uh the will of my grandfather

A. Uh-huh

D. And um it's um Fleet White’s signature as a witness and Nyla White. as a witness too

A. Okay and this is in it's hard to read the date 19…

D. 80

A. August 1980

D. Uh-huh

B. (inaudible)

A. Is that, that's supposed to be an 80

D. I think it

A. 19

D. Actually I think it should be a 90

A. 1990

D. Yeah

A. Okay and this is when Fleet White Jr. and his mom

D. No this is Fleet White Sr.

A. Okay this is Fleet White Sr., so the last sex assault that occurred to you by Fleet White Sr. .was back in August of 1990

D. Right

A. Is that right trying to get some of these straight and that’s after this photo it’s kind of a two page photocopy that rolls over, it's a it's supposed to be a legal size document Lee (inaudible )

P96-21871

C. (inaudible) I just received it on a fax machine and I assume it's the standard (inaudible)

A. (inaudible)

C. (inaudible) will

A. Okay, um when is the last time that Fleet White Jr. um was a suspect, when was the last time he did any type of sexual assault on you

D. Uh the best that I can remember it would have

A. We want you to .remember

D. Okay, it would had of been between uh 1976 and 1978

A. Okay, and where would that have occurred at

D. In Trona, California, Trona T R O N A

A. Okay, uh so '76 to '78…um…the kind there's there's kind of a big skip, I mean Fleet White Jr. stops in '78, um Senior doesn't stop until '90, were you around Fleet white Jr. between '78 and '90, have you been around him at all

D. I've seen him

A. Okay seen him like I mean like on TV or seen him personally

D. No in a more in a more casual setting at my aunt and uncle's house in Bakersfield

A. Okay, when was the last time you saw Fleet White Jr. in Bakersfield or saw at all

D. Uh woulda been in probably around in the .8O's mid mid 8Os

A. Okay um that's kind of a casual you just got kind of a casual atmosphere

D. Uh-huh

A. Uh

D. Where Fleet and Priscilla had come to visit my uh uncle

A. Okay

P96-21871

D. And Aunt in Bakersfield

A. But there wasn't any type of assault on you at that time

D. No

A. Okay um ...any reason why Fleet White Jr. stopped the assaults back in '78 I guess (inaudible)

D. We1l..."um I think because it……it had gotten to a point where I was being abused so much that um people were noticing things where I was going to school

A. Uh-huh

D. And they reported that there was some child abuse going on

A. Okay

D. And at that point in time I went to uh sex investigation and then later uh they went to a preliminary hearing and then the person um pleaded no contest to statutory rape and sodomy

A. Okay um we just pulled out a photograph of a person in Inyo County

D. Inyo

A. I N Y O County um Independence, California is that right

D. Right

A. Okay let's, who who's who's this a photograph of

D. Mackey Boykin

A. MACKY

D. Well he spelled it different ways

A. Okay

D. MACKIE or MACKEY

A. Okay...,Boykin

P96-21871

D. Uh-huh BOYKIN

A. Okay and when was this when was this booking photo taken

D. In '80

A. 1980

D. I think it says one or is that 81

A. It's hard to okay '80, '81 something like that; now how does how does Mackie fit into all this; who's Mackie

D. Mackie was uh my stepfather's brother

A. Okay

D. But not at the time that this was going on, he was my mom, when she was married to my dad

A. Uh-huh

D. Had several men that would come over to our house and Mackie's brother Mackie's sister Lived down the street from us in Buena Park

A. Okay, let let me back up just a little, what's your mom's name

D. Gwen

A. Got that G W

D. EN

A. E N and Boykin

D. BOYKIN

A. What's your real father's name

D. Don

A. Last. name

D. Krebs (inaudible) yeah

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  Who kills their own child?
Posted by: jameson245 - 09-20-2017, 09:56 PM - Forum: How to solve this mystery - Replies (2)

Want a place to post information on cases where a child is killed by a parent.  Want to show that it doesn't happen with no motive or history of mental illness, substance abuse or SOMETHING.

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  Radar Online - JonBenet drawings
Posted by: jameson245 - 09-20-2017, 06:44 PM - Forum: Tabloid stories - Replies (10)

So this week online at Radar Online, they are running a few of drawing by JonBenet and suggesting they may indicate prior abuse.  I will share the images and make comments.

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  BORG program transcript
Posted by: jameson245 - 09-19-2017, 11:04 PM - Forum: Patsy Ramsey - bio - No Replies

What bias can you spot?  What simple lies?


 Court TV Transcript about Patsy Ramsey being ambidextrous - October 25, 2000

JANE WALLACE: Welcome to the program. I'm Jane Wallace sitting in for Catherine Crier, who will return when her voice does. Could a break in the JonBenet case possibly be this simple? A new report in the National Enquirer claims the normally right-handed Patsy Ramsey is in reality ambidextrous and may have used her left hand to write that ransom note. Investigators have remained suspicious that while the ransom note didn't exactly match Patsy Ramsey's writing, it came pretty close. Here you see the Enquirer's comparision of the note next to a pageant application the Enquirer says was written eight days before. Ted Widmer joins us to talk about it. He's the director and principal instructor of the International School of Handwriting Sciences in San Francisco. He's also the author of Crime and Penmanship. In Los Angeles, Mike Walker, Senior Editor of the National Enquirer, also the host of the syndicated entertainment show, National Enquirer Uncovered. And in studio, Robert Tarver, criminal defense attorney extraordinaire. Welcome, all three. Thank you.
WALLACE: Mike Walker, it's your story, you're on first. Could it possibly be this simple after all this time?
WALKER: Well, for a long time investigators have known that the note was probably written by somebody who's ambidextrous. This is the Colorado Bureau of Investigation. But police have never been able to absolutely independently confirm that Patsy Ramsey was ambidextrous, so we decided because this case is so old and we're trying constantly to uncover new evidence, we went to witnesses everywhere, in Boulder, in Parkersburg, West Virginia, and we talked to...
WALLACE: Where she grew up.
WALKER: Where she grew up, where Patsy grew up. We talked to people from her school days, teachers, etc, and we found a witness, a high school teacher who taught Patsy in the 1970's, who said very simply and matter-of-factly she is ambidextrous. She was as a child. She is now. We went to Linda Hoffmann-Pugh, the housekeeper, and when we asked her this she said, oh yeah, she said, Patsy told me she was ambidextrous. I've seen her brush her hair with her left hand. I've seen her paint with her left hand. I once saw her work on a science project with Burke, JonBenet's brother, where she wrote numbers and letters with her left hand. She is absolutely ambidextrous. This is very exciting evidence. As I'm sure Mr. Widmer, the handwriting expert, will tell you, if you look at the letter, the ransom note, the two and a half page ransom note, you can see indications that this was written by a person who was using their non-dominant hand. The shaky handwriting..
WALLACE: Okay, let's take a peek. Mr. Widmer, if you would go along with us here. Take a look at what is similar and what is not similar here, because my concern is that after all these years, the notoriety of the crime, the unsolved status of the crime, that at this point in time you could get somebody to say that Patsy Ramsey is the Ghost of Christmas Past, I mean, you could find someone who'd say just about anything along the line. So you tell me, how do tell when something is written by an am.. you know, someone who can write with both hands, come on, how does anybody know that?
WIDMER: Well, actually, I'm not sure that you can say that it's possible to tell somebody who's ambidextrous, from at least a single sample of the handwriting. Handwriting actually is a misnomer because if you lose a hand, for example, and have to write with the pen, for example, held in your mouth or between your cheek and your shoulder, your handwriting basically stays the same. You really should call this brain-writing rather than handwriting. There have been many occasions where people have lost a hand, like say their dominant hand was their right hand and they then had to learn how to write with their left hand, and basically the handwriting looks virtually the same. There may be a slant change or some change. But it is difficult to say. It's also very difficult to say if somebody's either left-handed or right-handed who actually wrote the note. I think the main thing here is that this ransom note was written by a person who was trying to disguise their handwriting.
WALLACE: Not to mention the language in it. Come on. What type of criminal ever writes Mr. Ramsey, listen carefully, exclamation point?
WIDMER: I agree. Actually I have some thoughts on the fact of how it was written, the words that were written, and so forth, because it's very difficult to believe a mother could actually write those words, even though I always felt that the note was dictated, though I can't tell you exactly why, it's more of a feeling from the forty years I've been doing document examination. I got the feeling that the note was not actually spontaneously written, but probably dictated by somebody else.
WALLACE: Okay, but maybe written by Patsy Ramsey? Are you buying this or not? I'm not sure what you think.
WIDMER: Well, I think the important thing to understand here is that you definitely cannot rule out Patsy Ramsey as a possible writer of the note.
WALLACE: Okay.
WALKER: Well we, look, we hired the same handwriting expert that the FBI uses and that expert said that Patsy Ramsey wrote the note. The investigators at, Chet Ubowski, who's the chief investigator for the California Bureau of Investigation, was quoted in the recent book by the investigator who quit the case, saying, I believe she wrote the note.
WALLACE: Okay, but let's look into the whys here, as you're making that point, Mike. The R's for example. I mean, even I was a little bit convinced by the R's, even though I'm a little bit skeptical here. Let's look at some of the similarities between this pageant application and the actual ransom note, such as it was called, listen carefully exclamation point. If we can put up the graphic, I'd like to take a peek here. Look at the R's in both. I don't know if we can get in close. And the language. The language is so arch in that ransom note. By the time you get to page three, there is a quote that says something like use your southern manners....
WALKER: It's use your good common... southern common sense, John. Now, at the beginning of the note it says, and this is something that I came up with once when I was watching this on a television show. I looked at it and I said, look how it opens. We represent a small foreign faction, right? Okay...
WALLACE: What foreign faction calls itself a faction?
WALKER: Right, I was going to say... and what is going... what foreign faction, okay? I mean, I don't think Abu Ben Booby of the, you know, the Desert Liberation Front is going to say, use your good southern common sense, John. Unh-unh. That note is totally stilted. It is very arch, as Mr. Widmer points out. It was obviously written by somebody... I mean, look, intruders do not come to homes and say, gee I think I'll sit down and write me a nice two and half page ransom note while I have this dead body sitting here...
WALLACE: And I'm from a small faction of single mothers from the upper west side of New York. Okay, Mr. Tarver, get in here. You got to play the role of defense attorney.
TARVER: And you know what, it's not even hard here because the bottom line is when we strip away everything that everyone has said, Mr. Widmer says it best. We're at the same place we were before. The only thing that we know now is that the CBI and the Boulder Police have sunk to a new low. They've been out-investigated by the National Enquirer, no less. And you know, when I look at this whole thing, I'm reminded of the fact that PR gave a handwriting sample with her left hand to the police already. So this is nothing new. She already gave this sample, so ...
[cross-talk]
WALKER: ....corroboration.
TARVER: ...obviously, they must have made a determination already...
WALKER: That's right.
TARVER: So this is nothing new. She already gave this sample, so they could compare it and obviously...
WALKER: What's new is the corroboration.
TARVER: Obviously, they must have made a determination even based on the sample that she gave that that was not enough, so here we are rehashing the same things over again, dragging this woman again over the coals, and what for? They've already got the information. They've already determined that it's not enough.
WALKER: Because she murdered her daughter.
TARVER: That's a conclusory statement, and in America we try to prove these things first before...
WALKER: That's what we're trying to do, counselor...
WIDMER: I'd like to ask a question if I could...
WALKER: ...and will continue trying to do.
[cross-talk]
WALLACE: Go ahead, Mr. Widmer, go ahead.
WALKER: And yes, she did give the handwriting sample. What you're missing here, this is corroboration that she is in fact ambidextrous, something the police could never determine...
TARVER: They could never go to these other sources, they could never talk to her housekeeper? You're telling me that the police were that inept that they'd never
[cross-talk]
single person?
WALKER: Yes, we are telling you that... we are the first ones who asked Linda Hoffmann-Pugh, right, when we asked Linda Hoffmann-Pugh she went yeah, Patsy was ambidextrous. We found the high school teacher.
TARVER: But they did have the presence of mind, they did have the presence of mind to have her take a sample with the other hand, which means that they must have had an idea that that might have been the case. They've done that. They've covered their bases. What else is there to show now?
[cross-talk]
WIDMER: ...something here if I may.
WALLACE: Mr. Widmer, when I listen to you talk about this as brain-writing, am I the only person whose handwriting developed by forging notes with their mother's signature? People can change their style of writing and if I tried to write a monkey note right now as a ransom note from a private faction, I'm not sure you could trace it to me.
WIDMER: Well, one of the tenants in handwriting identification is we always like to have the original sample. In other words, we like to have the one that was actually written with the pad and so forth, not a photocopy. None of us except for the people directly involved, apparently, in Colorado have actually seen the original note. The reason for that is because one of the main aspects of handwriting identification is pressure pattern. In other words, the force exerted, which is directly related to the neuromuscular system of the person. When you have a photocopy, you can't see that. But I do have a question I would like to ask, possibly of Mr. Turner because..
WALLACE: Tarver. Go ahead.
WIDMER: You may have more information than I do on this. But they might have taken exemplars with her left hand, but what were the exemplars? Something that's always bothered me about this case is I always question whether the exemplars were done correctly.
WALLACE: What do you mean - the samples they made her write, is that an exemplar?
WIDMER: That's what we call a... sample, exemplar, same...
TARVER: Quite frankly, I don't have that information, but something leads me to believe from a reading before that they may have taken entire series of words and not just light writing, but a series of words. But when you look at the whole thing, the question is, you would think that since the gentleman from the Enquirer is saying, look, our people, we've got the FBI expert says that this is the note, we've got people who have worked with this bureau and that bureau, they say this is the note... is there any way that this information can be corroborated? How come the CBI and the Boulder Police are not getting that same information? If it [cross-talk] conclusive.
WALKER: Well, they do. We have turned that over to the Colorado Bureau of Investigation. We've turned this evidence over. And I just told you that the chief handwriting expert for the CBI says, quote, I believe she wrote the note.
TARVER: I believe it's different than conclusive...
WALKER: It's up now to the prosecutors to, you know, to indict. I've never understood why that hasn't happened.
WALLACE: Okay, but you went one further, Mike Walker.
WALKER: I'm sorry?
WALLACE: You went one further. Not only did you believe she wrote the note, you believe she killed JonBenet. Why did you make that leap? Even if, as Mr. Widmer said, she may have been taking dictation. Why do you assume she was JonBenet's killer as well as the author of this note?
WALKER: Because of all of, I mean, why do I believe it? Because of the mountain of evidence that shows that there was no intruder in the house.
WALLACE: But why her, not him?
WALKER: I believe they were both complicit in it. I believe both of them know what happened that night and I believe they're both guilty in that regard and I've always believed that and that's my opinion.
TARVER: You know what the key is... the key word to what you're saying, Mr. Walker, quite respectfully, is what you believe and you're entitled to your beliefs but you know what, ...
WALKER: Yes it is. But I'm also... that's right.
TARVER: I've been in law for a long time, both as a prosecutor and as a defense attorney, and when we presented cases as a prosecutor, it was more than just our belief. We went with what the evidence could show. That was our responsibility as public servants and this is...
WALKER: And you believe as a former prosecutor there's not enough here to just indict? I'm not saying to convict, I'm saying...
TARVER: You want to indict irresponsibly, I could indict you for the Ramsey murder if I wanted to, but if you want to do it responsibly...
[crosstalk]
watch me, watch me.
WALKER: I don't think it would be irresponsible.... oh no you couldn't, sir, I wasn't in the house that night. They were. They lied, they openly lied, they said...
TARVER: You've never been before a grand jury... you've obviously never been before a grand jury...
WALKER: Well, they said... what about all the evidence that shows that Burke, who was supposedly asleep, by their own testimony, suddenly is found on a tape wide awake saying, daddy, what did you find? How do explain that?
TARVER: Are you suggesting that they're just incompetent or looking the other way?
WALKER: I suggest...
TARVER: It has to be one of the two.
WALKER: ... that they are incompetent. I have also said that the prosecutor and the defense attorneys own a shopping center in Boulder. I find Boulder to be a town that is just incredibly indifferent to exhaustively finding out who did this crime.
WALLACE: Okay, Ted Widmer, we're going to get out of the field of belief here and into the field of courtroom fact. If it was your belief as an expert that she in fact may have authored this note with another hand, would that be enough to justify an indictment? Would it be enough to convict? Or it going to stay the same old basically suspended case?
WIDMER: I've always been amazed that the handwriting hasn't been a stronger factor in this entire case because we should be able to identify that handwriting. I would like to find out, or, if anyone knows, if they actually gave these handwriting samples in the way they should have, and the way they should have done this, and they may have, I don't know but I never heard them do this, is someone should have gotten a piece of paper the same size as the ransom note, found a pen that was similar, it looks from the photocopies I've seen..
WALLACE: Like a felt-tip.
WIDMER: Like a felt-tip, exactly. And then someone dictate her the entire ransom note, and have her do it with first the right hand and then the left hand and now you have a good examplar. If you had something like that and you had a handwriting expert who knew what he was doing and pair all the originals, the exemplar versus the original note, you would now have a very good piece of evidence because handwriting identification is accepted all over the world as a form of identification.
WALLACE: Mr. Tarver, you get the last fifteen seconds...
TARVER: It seems to me that those are established norms of handwriting analysis. I've worked with handwriting experts before...
WIDMER: Correct.
TARVER: That's exactly what they do. So either you're saying that the people that are doing this are sub-par and not quality people, not qualified to do it, or you're saying that perhaps we don't have the quantum of evidence that we think we have, and that's why have to be careful when we point the finger and say this person is the murderer without the proof to back it up.
WALLACE: Mike Walker, last word, ten seconds.
WALKER: I just believe that this is new, startling evidence that should be examined. I believe that this is enough to show that Patsy Ramsey may have been complicit, may have written that ransom note.
WALLACE: Rob Tarver, Mike Walker and Ted Widmer, what an enjoyable discussion. Thank you very much.... and provocative

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  She shouldn't need funding
Posted by: jameson245 - 09-19-2017, 10:29 PM - Forum: Truth about Tricia Griffith and weBsleuths - Replies (5)


.pdf   websleuths-lawsuit-1.pdf (Size: 494.76 KB / Downloads: 6)

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  On Peter Boyles
Posted by: jameson245 - 09-14-2017, 06:08 PM - Forum: Stephen Miles - No Replies

Peter Boyles Show - Wednesday, October 7, 1998


Peter Boyles transcript  10/7/1998

PB: Since this tragedy has begun, this is the 3rd mayor, 2nd chief of police, 2nd city manager. Maybe we can call Carol McKinley--I think Thurs is scheduled GJ day. What has happened inside Boulder since this began is very reflective. Stephen, why are you suing John Ramsey
PB: Because you believe John gave you up?
SM: All the comments were attributed to John--including the Enquirer---of course now they're saying different
PB: You get called into your neighbor's home one afternoon ---How far do you live from Ramsey home?
SM: It's 5 short blocks
PB: One afternoon, your neighbor said to come over to your house. What happened
SM: A gentleman there introduced himself from Enquirer---said "I'm pleased to meet you, I'm sorry to tell you ---our investigators have found that the Ram camp are intending to target you as a suspect in the killing of their daughter. We believe they're doing this to take attention away from themselves. Then they asked me questions like, why would they do that, and did I know them
PB: Did you know them?
SM: No
PB: How did the Enquirer get your name from John Ramsey?
SM: He said to me that our people said that John Ramsey intend to target you--at that point, my neighbor said to me, 'trust me, this is a real situation'
PB: How did you feel?
SM: I felt very cold and clammy--I'm sure I loked very pale at the time...and my God..

PB: : Sueing John Ramsey-- Stephen lived in the neighborhood of the Rams and was given up. Stephen, you know you're not the only one--there have been at least 6 that John has decided to attempt to make them the target. Lee, I know you're a good attorney. You gotta believe Fleet and Priscilla White? Can you talk about these things? My point is that Stephen certainly isn't the only one.

LH; A lot of people have been accused, I can only talk about Stephen. He wakes up one morning and his face is on the tabloids across the nation--and the articles continue about that. I have to say JR's attorneys insist he had nothing to do with this. This leaves us in position that we have to find everything we can to see where they came from.

PB: : Enquirer says 'our sources are good' Who did reporter say was his source?

SM; He wouldn't name him--said 'one of our investigators' that they're indeed very thorough.

LH; With Stephen, as near as we can determine, it's associated with an arrest made in '75---he has a reputation for art--someone told PD that it was pornographic---there was a party, PD came in--they seized some 2,000 photos and arrested him for pornography---after looking at all pictures etc--they determined that he hadn't taken any pornographic pictures. All those charges related to exploiting a child--were dismissed.

PB: : But someone knew that had happened?

LH: Absolutely. The dissolution of the case was the minor charge was Stephen buying alcoholic for a minor--all the other charges were dropped.

PB: : Do you believe that operating in Boulder were private investigators working for Rams were the ones that found this info on Stephen and gave it to someone who gave it to the Enquirer?

LH: It's possible. Haddon's office maintains nobody with that firm had anything to do with this story

PB: : Today there's no one left standing for the Rams, except Stines who left town. What's the chance that someone knew the story....

LH: There's so many possibilities---but we're trying. Stephen and his whole family have been casualties---putting blame on innocent people. We're determined to clear Stephen's name and the only way is to follow this

PB: : If Enquirer won't give up source, what are you going to do?

LH We're very hopeful that we will uncover the truth

PB: : What will be interesting is will what was done to me be done to the Enquirer? I want to see how a judge would treat Enquirer reporter. If they threaten them with jail, I would be a very surprised sob. I want to see JR or Enquirer hit for $20,000----so when is this going to happen?

LH: Thursday we have a big motion---we have a trial date set for February, but it's likely it will be continued

PB: : Will be interesting to me--about giving up sources--to see if there's equal justice . What's your bet on this

SM: There are a lot of uncanny similarities. I hate to take joy in your adversity here--but it's a real interesting course courts taken

PB: : All I want is to see the Rams treated as I was treated.. If there's such a thing as a shield law--I'd like to see it--it wasn't there for me. I've been hit for $44,000 total and never even had a trial. Let's do a little compare and contrast. Now you buys walk in there and let's see if they drop $44,000 on the Enquirer.

PB: (now he corrected it) I go way back, and have talked to Lee Hill, back when he was running for city council. Your platform was largely the R case.

LH: The platform was broader than that. Changes have been affected, so people were listening. There's a new interaction and mobilization.

PB: The is the third mayor, second chief of police, etc. What has happened in the city is amazing, and in the middle of this comes your client. Why are you suing the Enquirer?

LH: The headline on the NE attributed all of the remarks to the Ramsey camp.

PB: You get called into your neighbor's house. How far do you live from the R home?

SM: About five blocks.

PB: You go to the next door neighbor's home...

SM: A guy introduced himself as from the NE, (microphone trouble?) Our investigators have determined that the R camp are intending to target you.

PB: Had you ever met the R's?

SM: No, but my next door neighbor had.

PB: They were friends.

SM: Our invest. have determined that JR intends to target you. My neighbor said, trust me, this is a serious deal here.

PB: How did you feel?

SM: I felt cold and clammy...

PB: Suing JR, the attorney is Lee Hill. Stephen was given up, and your're not the only one, but you're the first one to sue him. You've got to believe, Priscilla White, Fleet White...

LH: Bear in mind the scale. SM wakes up one morning, and his picture is across the country accusing him of being a child murderer. JR's attorneys deny he had anything to do with it (my fingers are really slow today)

PB: Who did (David?) name as his source?

SM: He said they have a good team.

PB: Why do you think JR gave you up?

LH: With SM, this seems to have to do with the photograph of the 17 year-old. Someone must have called the police with this info. All of those charges having to do with the porn charges have been dismissed. The resolution of the case was not a big headline item.

PB: Operating in Boulder were private investigators working with the R camp. Do you think they found this out and bootlegged this info into the Haddon offices? What are the chances of some Boulder citizen, who knew the R's...

LH: We're determined to get to the bottom of this. Deflection of blame on innocent people.

PB: If the NE won't give up the source...

LH: We'll be checking other sources...

PB: What has been done to me, will it be done to the NE and JR? One of the reasons I have you here today, if they go after the NE, and threaten jail.

LH: I was going to ask you for briefs (as to your situation) We have a trial date set for next year.

PB: I want to see what they do on the other side of this. What's your bet as to how this will be handled?

LH: I almost take joy in your situation.

PB: That's ok. I just want to see how it's going to work on the other side.

LH: We want SM's name cleared.

PB: I was found guilty without a trial. $44 thousand and change. When you boys walk in there...

(man, my fingers are fumbling this morning...very glad Pan is there to get most of what is being said)

Interesting no mention of Judith Phillips by name. She is referred to as a friend and neighbor.

8. "cont"
Posted by Byron on 06:56:00 10/07/98

PB: Because the NE published...how did they get your photo that was on the cover?

SM: My next door neighbor is a photographer also. When she came over she said she needed a photo, and on the last shot, she asked me to clasp my hands behind my head.

PB: Do you think your neighbor give you up on this?

SM: No. LH: She has social relationship with the NE. PB: What was the text? LH: The text said JR intended to deflect attention from himself if he was indicted. PB: You want to talk to JR... LH: Yes, and PR, and anyone who has info on the case. PB: What do you think is going to happen? LH: We hope we can present to a jury. PB: I have a prediction, you won't get past... SM: It's how much justice can you afford... LH: It's one of the biggest lawfirms in the country. SM is impovershed, as is the lawyer PB: One of the reasons I asked these guys to be here, is they need help. Anyone in the audience who would like to help. LH: Basically, I don't want to pass the hat.We were fortunate enough to meet with the cybersleuths, I understand you did too, and they expressed an interest in helping. Phone is 303-449-9244. Lee Hill PO Box 21181 Boulder, Colo 80308. We appreciate the cybersleuth's help on the internet as well.

PB: For me it's a fascinating lawsuit to watch.

LH; This hearing is Thursday afternoon.

PB: And you'll be with us Friday morning to let us know what happened?

LH: Yes



(The neighbor was Judith Phillips and the reporter John South.   I understand they were veery close friends, Phillips and South.)

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  On Dave Lucas Radio show
Posted by: jameson245 - 09-14-2017, 05:40 PM - Forum: Judith Phillips - No Replies

The Dave Lucas Radio Show
April 3, 1999
Partial Transcript - Judith Phillips

[Image: colorbar.gif]

BEGINNING OF TRANSCRIPT April 3, 1999:

Dave Lucas: From the Internet we have Brenda on the line calling from North Carolina, right Brenda?

Brenda: That's right

Dave Lucas: Okay and she's got some questions for you Judith

Judith Phillips: Okay

Brenda: Yes, um, Judith, I would like to know why you sold the pictures you sold of JonBenet to the tabloids?

Judith Phillips: Um, I explained this on Larry King live before.

Brenda: I don't get CNN

Judith Phillips: Oh you don't

Brenda: No, so that's why I would like to know. It bothers me that you did that.

Judith Phillips: Well that's your opinion

Brenda: I mean it's kind of like the Linda Tripp of Boulder.

Judith Phillips: Ah eh

Brenda. I mean that's the way I see it

Judith Phillips: Well your entitled to your opinion and I have the photographs and I kept them secure in a safe for many many months because I was afraid somebody would break into my house and steal them.

Brenda: Ah eh.

Judith Phillips: And I had many many people at that particular time approaching me, ah, about the photographs that I was……

Brenda: See I would have admired you if you had kept them till it was all over and then done something with them but I think the time that they were released was sort of a disgusting thing to do. You know I was just wondering why you did it.

Judith Phillips: Well because, um, at that particular point I was approached, I was, I had several friends from the publication that approached me

Brenda: I mean was it for the money? Is that why you did it?

Judith Phillips: No it was not

Brenda: Okay

Judith Phillips: Because I had been um, constantly hounded by people who wanted to see my photographs and my photographs were quite different than what most people had seen before and I was not equipped nor did I want to be able to a photography agency to handle all those requests so the publication said they would do that for me.

Brenda: Did you offer it to the Ramsey's first?

Judith Phillips: Did I offer?

Brenda: The pictures

Judith Phillips: No I did not.

Brenda: Did you offer it to their family?

Judith Phillips: No, I did not

Brenda: You just took it on your own to put them in a tabloid, is that right?

Judith Phillips: Well I owned the pictures

Brenda: Yeah I know, I am aware of that

Judith Phillips: Ah eh

Brenda: I mean I was just asking the question. They weren't aware that you were going to do this with the pictures?

Judith Phillips: I don't know, I can't answer that

Dave Lucas: Judith, are there any other photographs that did not get released?

Brenda: (can't make out first part) I mean she could pick up a few hundred dollars you know

Judith Phillips: Well ah, are you finished now?

Brenda: Yeah, I was listening to you honey

Judith Phillips: Okay, well I think I am finished talking to you too.

Brenda: Okay, thanks

Dave Lucas: Okay, well thanks for your call.

End of transcript…………..

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  Police officers / detectives
Posted by: jameson245 - 09-11-2017, 01:12 PM - Forum: Some Important quotes - Replies (1)

"I have not seen any evidence that would be compelling to suggest that John and Patsy did kill their daughter at this point. And the evidence to me certainly suggests that someone committed the murder other than them."

Detective Steve Ainsworth  April 30, 2001  TODAY show on NBC

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  Atlanta confrontation
Posted by: jameson245 - 09-10-2017, 12:14 PM - Forum: Fleet and Priscilla White - Replies (1)

From Westword

Several accounts of the trip to Atlanta have claimed that there was a "blow-up" between Fleet White and John Ramsey; some have even hinted that the meltdown had something to do with JonBenét's murder. The Ramseys' own account, in their book The Death of Innocence, doesn't go that far. But it does portray the Whites as unduly agitated, and Fleet's behavior, in particular, as erratic, "unreasonable" and vaguely threatening.
The Whites' version of what happened -- supported, to a significant degree, by contemporaneous notes and conversations with detectives -- is quite different. There was no blow-up, they insist, just a somewhat testy conversation between Fleet and Westmoreland, who took him aside and told him to "back off." The Ramseys had lawyers, private investigators and a crisis-management firm to look after them now, Westmoreland explained, and they were planning on staying in Atlanta.
"I got really pissed," Fleet says. "I said, 'You do that, and it's not going to go anybody's way.' And I told Priscilla, 'We've got to get out of here and go talk to John.'"

The Whites visited with Jeff Ramsey, John's brother, then tracked John down at the home of Patsy's parents, Don and Nedra Paugh. The conversation was passionate but hardly menacing, the Whites say. "We just laid out a case for John about why he needed to go back to Boulder," Fleet recalls. "I told him, 'What you do in the next 24 hours is going to define the rest of your life. You need to talk to the cops. Patsy needs to talk to the cops. We all need to do that and find out what happened to JonBenét.'"
Ramsey listened calmly, leaving the room a couple of times to take phone calls. The Whites assumed he was speaking with his attorneys. Patsy was nowhere to be seen. At one point John returned and announced that he was going to offer a $50,000 reward for information about his daughter's death.
"You're going to sound like O.J.," Priscilla said.
By the end of the session, Ramsey was assuring the Whites that he and Patsy would return to Boulder. Far from being incensed, the Ramseys invited the couple to brunch at the Paughs' on New Year's Day. The Whites arrived and learned that John and Patsy were scheduled to appear on CNN later that day. Priscilla helped Patsy, who was still heavily medicated, get ready for her close-up, urging her to not to wear her diamond ring and mink coat. John Ramsey would later claim that it was Fleet White's idea for the parents to appear on national television and defend themselves; Fleet denies it, saying he was intent on getting the Ramseys to cooperate with the police. Priscilla remembers the two men sitting together on a couch that morning, talking earnestly and holding hands for several minutes before the Whites left for the airport.
That was the last conversation of any substance the Whites ever had with John and Patsy Ramsey. Fleet saw them once at church after they returned -- there are conflicting versions of that meeting, too -- but that was it. The Whites had been exiled from the inner circle.

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