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  Ed Gelb test results
Posted by: jameson245 - 02-19-2017, 07:21 PM - Forum: Polygraphs - Replies (7)

May 24, 2000  Atlanta, Georgia

ED GELB, POLYGRAPH EXPERT: Thank you, Lin. Good afternoon, ladies and gentlemen.

I think, in the interest of time, my reading to you the result report of the polygraph examinations may be the most succinct way to provide you with the information that I gleaned from all of the examinations that I conducted with the Ramseys. So I think that I will actually read the report to you. We'll have time for questions and answers, but I think this will give you a basic understanding of the process.

This is a report that was directed to L. Lin Wood, the attorney in this matter. "Psychophysiological detection of deception examinations of John and Patsy Ramsey. This is summary report covering a series of examinations of John and Patsy Ramsey, conducted between May 6 and May 17 of the year 2000. The examinations were conducted in Atlanta, Georgia and Los Angeles, California. The issues under consideration dealt with the allegation that the Ramseys were involved in the murder of their daughter, JonBenet, who was found dead in the Ramsey home in Boulder, Colorado, December 26, 1996. Case information was provided by attorney L. Lin Wood and, through numerous reports of the murder in print.

"During extensive pre-test interviews, both John and Patsy Ramsey denied involvement in JonBenet's murder. These examinations were requested by the Ramseys who agreed that the results of the examinations could be given to the authorities prior to their knowing the outcome themselves.

"The equipment utilized, an axiton (ph) computerized polygraph calibrated to factory specifications were used for the five series of examinations.

"Technique, a zone comparison technique was utilized for all of the examinations with three polygrams being collected for each of the five series conducted. The zone comparison technique has been validated in numerous studies conducted for United States governmental agencies. The resultant polygrams were numerically scored on a 7- position scale by the primary examiner Edward I. Gelb, Ph.D, and then subjected to quality control and blind scoring by Cleve Baxter, the originator of the numerical scoring system.

"John Ramseys examinations: Two series of single-issue examinations were conducted with John Ramsey. In a single issue examination all of the relevant questions are necessarily included in one and are designed to mean the same thing; hence, it is a single- issue examinations.

"The first examination was conducted to determine if he had direct involvement in the murder. In other words, whether John inflicted the injuries that caused the death of JonBenet.

"The second examination was conducted to determine whether John knew who killed JonBenet.

"The questions asked during the two single-issue examinations follow with John Ramsey's answers.

"Series one, John Ramsey. Question 1: Did you inflict any of the injuries that caused the death of JonBenet. Answer: no.

"2. Regarding JonBenet, did you inflict any of the injuries that caused her death. Answer: No.

"3. Were those injuries that resulted in JonBenet's death inflicted by you? Answer: No.

"Conclusion: Based on the numerical scoring of the examination in this series, John Ramsey was telling the truth when he denied inflicting the injuries that caused the death of his daughter, JonBenet. "Series 2, John Ramsey, Question 1. Do you know for sure who killed JonBenet? Answer: No.

"Regarding JonBenet, do you know for sure who killed her? Answer: No.

"Are you concealing the identity of the person who killed JonBenet? Answer: No.

"Conclusion: Based on the numerical scoring of the examinations in this series, John Ramsey was telling the truth when he denied knowing who killed JonBenet.

"Patsy Ramsey's examinations. The first polygraph examination was unusable due to distortions. Appropriate cautions were suggested to eliminate the artifacts so that conclusive results could be obtained. Three series of single-issue examinations were conducted with Patsy Ramsey. The first examination was conducted to determine if Patsy Ramsey had direct involvement in the murder. In other words, whether Patsy inflected the injuries that caused the death of JonBenet. The second examination was conducted to determine whether Patsy knew who killed JonBenet. The third examination was conducted to determine if Patsy wrote the ransom note that was found at the scene.

"The questions asked during the three single-issue examinations follow with Patsy Ramsey's answer.

"Series one, Patsy Ramsey: Did you inflict any of the injuries that caused the death of JonBenet? Answer: No."

"Regarding JonBenet, did you inflict any of the injuries that caused her death. Answer: No.

"Were those injuries that resulted in JonBenet's death inflicted by you? Answer: No.

"Conclusion: Based on the numerical scoring of the examinations in this series, Patsy Ramsey was telling the truth when she denied inflicting the injuries that caused the death of his daughter, JonBenet.

"Series two, Patsy Ramsey. Do you know for who inflicted the injuries that caused the death of JonBenet? Answer: No.

"Regarding JonBenet, do you know for sure who killed her? Answer: No.

"Are you concealing the identity of the person who killed JonBenet? Answer: No.

"Conclusion: Based on the numerical scoring of the examinations in this series, Patsy Ramsey was telling the truth when she denied knowing who killed JonBenet.

"Series 3, Patsy Ramsey: Did you write the ransom note that was found in your house? Answer: No.

"Question 2: Regarding the ransom note, did you write it? Answer: No."

"Question 3: Is that your hand-writing on the ransom note found in your house? Answer: No."

"Conclusion: Based on the numerical scoring of the examinations in this series, Patsy Ramsey was telling the truth when she denied writing the JonBenet ransom note.

"Quality control: A separate report covering the quality control of these examinations has been written by Cleve Baxter, who is one of the world's foremost experts in the field of detection of deception and the person who originated numerical scoring. Baxter's independent analysis corroborated the findings of the undersigned primary examiner.

"Final conclusion: Based on extensive polygraph examination, neither John nor Patsy Ramsey were attempting deception when they gave the indicated answers to the relative questions."

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  April 30, 1997 until tests taken
Posted by: jameson245 - 02-19-2017, 06:48 PM - Forum: Polygraphs - Replies (9)

Quote:During the April, 1997 interviews, both John and Patsy were carefully approached about taking polygraphs.  Note they were never asked to take them, no one said they would set them up.  The truth is, the police weren't prepared to give the family polygraphs and some did not WANT to deal with the results if they said the Ramseys were telling the truth.


From John Ramsey's Interrogation by Steve Thomas and Tom Trujillo. Also present were Pat Burke, Bryan Morgan, Pete Hoffstrom and Jon Foster
April 30, 1997 - Boulder, Colorado


STEVE THOMAS: "John, one of the things, as you know better than anybody, at some point, if you’re not involved in this, we’ve got to take you out of the bucket. And you’ve been in it for four months and you certainly know why you’re in that bucket is you’re in the house, and I don’t need to say anything more than that. But, and I ask this question of Patsy, and where it might come out if (inaudible), but I’ll ask it. And I’m not asking you to take one, but if you were to take a polygraph, how would you do?"

JOHN RAMSEY: "Well, what I’ve been told is that, and I felt tremendous guilt after we lost JonBenet, because hadn’t protected her, like I failed as a parent. And was told that that’s, with that kind of emotion you shouldn’t take a lie detector test because you did have that guilt feeling, and, but, so I don’t know about the test, but I did not kill my daughter if that’s what you want to ask me. She was the most precious thing to me in the world. So if the lie detector test is correct and it was done correct, I’d pass it 100%."

STEVE THOMAS: "John, let me tell you this, I feel like an encyclopedia salesman sometimes, because I‘ve gone to a number of people in this thing, and it’s hard to convince somebody to take a polygraph test. But I’ve been successful on occasion with some people that I’ve been concerned about, and used what I’ve been told, is one of the ten best FBI calligraphers to do that. And I’ll ask you point blank, at some point in this, would you take a polygraph?"

JOHN RAMSEY: "I would be insulted if you ask me to take a polygraph test, frankly. I mean if you haven’t talked to enough people whose telling you what kind of people we are. You guys, I mean, I will do whatever these guys recommend me to do. We are not the kind of people you’re trying to make us out to be."

@@@@@@@@@@@@  This is the subject as put to Patsy on the same day.  @@@@@@@@@@

PATSY RAMSEY: "What does it take to move past me?"

STEVE THOMAS: "Well, let me ask you this, and I know Pat Burke’s going to jump all over me. And I know, well, let me ask you his way. I’m not asking you to take one, but hypothetically, if you took a polygraph, how would you do?"

PATSY RAMSEY: "I’m telling you the truth. I would, I mean I don’t know how those things work, but if they tell the truth, I ‘m telling the truth. I’ve never ever given anybody a reason to think otherwise. I want to find out who did this, period."



STEVE THOMAS: "Does that mean, yes, you’d pass it?"



PATSY RAMSEY: "Yes, I would pass it. I’ll take ten of them, I don’t care, you know. Do whatever you want."



STEVE THOMAS: "Patsy, let me make this clear to you. As much as you feel, and certainly from the media."


PATSY RAMSEY: "I don’t care what the media says. I do not give one diddly squat what the media says. Sorry, I didn’t mean to interrupt you. I just want to find out who did this."

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  The stun gun company denies possibility
Posted by: jameson245 - 02-19-2017, 05:10 PM - Forum: Disproving Myths - No Replies

There is more on the stun gun thread but I just want to share this part of the interview with Steve Tuttle of Air Taser:

AFTER VIEWING LOU'S PRESENTATION Tuttle was asked if the effect of the stun gun might be different if the victim was forced to stay still during the attack.

Reporter: Do you buy the theory? Does it hold water?

ST:I don't know. It's bewildering to us as a company. We were approached by Lou Smit in the very
beginning of the investigation. We provided a list of people who had the actual AIR TASER in
Colorado. We've also provided them a lot of information...

MISSING SECTION!!!!!!!
R: ...distinctive marks that appear to be the same spread. I think you have an AIR TASER with you
right now and there are in fact - - can you hold it up? - there are two electrodes in the end, right?

ST: There are two electrodes right here what they are talking about is actually leaving marks here
and they are about 3 1/2 cm apart and they're fairly similar in width if you were to measure those
two.

R: Now here's the big question - Can someone hold that to somebody without them flinching or
moving back?

ST: That's the crux of the bewilderment from our company's perspective. I'm going to go ahead and
do this on my arm. I don't like doing this at all but

R: I'm sure you don't

ST: I want to try to hold it there as long as I can. Now this would be simulating anybody's reaction.
(He grimaced and held the stun gun to his arm, he did NOT cry out or make any noise until he pulled
the stun gun away.)

UH! That is exceedingly painful to say the least, it's something instinctually I want to get away from

R: OK, but you're a grown man, Let's take ourselves to the crime scene. This is a little girl who was
asleep, she's 6 years old, what's to say a grown man can't hold her down and just simply hold that to
her?

ST: Well, that could be done, but what we're seeing is a mark that's not moving and as you saw my
arm flailing about... even if someone is heavier,holding that down, that person is going to wake up
immediately and instinctively want to get away from the pain.

R: What about the the notion of incapacitating someone? Is this, obviously when you're being
shocked there, you're out of it for that moment, but when you took it away, you were fine. Will it
knock somebody out?

ST: That is very, very crucial to the issue here, it will not knock someone out, it will not render them
mute. They will kick and scream. I did my best to not scream into the microphone here because it
was very uncomfortable.

R: Once you took it away, though, you were fine?

ST: ... once you stop it. And it's very loud when it's in the air. It does go much more silent as Lou
Smit pointed out with the pillow. It does go more silent when you stick it in the skin. However, the
minute that person breaks contact you do get that loud arcing sound. And again, it just simply would
not cause incapacitation

R: Mr. Tuttle, I can certainly understand why a company would not want their name or product
associated with a crime in this case. Do you see any reasonable possibility that it COULD have been a
TASER and that a child that young COULD have been incapacitated?

ST: It could have been ours and I certainly, we want to work with the investigators, we have from
the very beginning. Um, I don't know. It's bewildering to see if this was ours. The measurements are
close. They're not exact, but I don't know. That's what's stupifying - is you've got two separate
marks that are crystally clear, perfect, without any movement shown on the suspect's, oh, I'm sorry,
on JonBenét. I just don't understand that, how that can be there. (Showing his arm) I don't have the
marks here, they're all over the place. I'm not sure if you can see... from me moving, they've gone
everywhere. Ah,

R: Certainly not as deep as what we saw there. You mentioned... we're quickly running out of time...
you mentioned that you provided list of those who had been sold. Is this something you have to
register to buy?

ST: Yes We do require as a company that if a person purchases an AIR TASER, we are going to know
who that person is. They are registered in a data base and if it's used in the TASER mode, which
would incapacitate somebody, it's going to emit little confetti tags that would match back to the
owner. In this case the taser was not used so we don't have these confetti tags. But we do have
serial numbers. If they find one, we could match that up to who it was sold to.

R: Steven Tuttle, we do appreciate you spending the time with us today.
ST: Thank you

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  Air Taser interview (and more)
Posted by: jameson245 - 02-19-2017, 04:20 PM - Forum: Stun Gun - Replies (6)

"AIR TASER - interview"


"AIR TASER interview"

MSNBC reporter: "... Taser International, the company that manufactured the stun gun Smit believes
was used in this crime. Steven, thanks for being here. In fact, he says it was an AIR TASER 34,000.
You've got one with you, show us how it works.
Steven Tuttle - Taser International: "Well, what you have is the stun gun version of the Air Taser. If
I push back the safety here, (firing stun gun in air)I can activate the actual stun gun and that's what
we... you have to apply to a person to keep them at bay, so to speak.
Reporter: Can you apply it to your arm?
ST: I can, ah, it's not fun, but (applies to arm held in air, the contact is brief and repeating as the
arm jumps away) AH (he grunted) It's very disconcerting and makes you want to stay away from it.
It's somewhat painful. To me that just felt like pins and needles hitting on my arm right now and I
want to get away from that pain.
Reporter: Did it leave a mark?
ST: Not at all. (Showing arm)
Reporter: Let's take a look at a couple of ... we still-framed just a moment ago duting this package
here... the front end of that Air taser, let's take a look at it right now. You can see, there you see,
how far apart are the two sort of electrodes that come out there? Are they roughly 3.5 cm apart?
ST: That's fairly close, yes.
Reporter: And there's another look at it there. OK, the reason I ask that is that Lou Smit took your
product, the 34000 Air Taser, he tested it on an anaestitized pig, hard to say, and produced the
same marks that were discovered on JonBenét Ramsey - not in one place, but in two separate
places. What do you make of that?
ST: Well, actually, we helped supply that Air Taser for the testing. We were as interested in this
case as Lou Smit is. We've worked with him from the very beginning of the case. The one thing that's
interesting is that the marks that the pigs have do look fairly similar to what's on JonBenét Ramsey.
What's unusual is that, if you saw my arm, it was going off in many, many directions. It's extremely
painful, uh, not even painful, just I wanted to get away from it. I don't know how you could leave
this particular device in one solid spot, not once but twice
Reporter: Yeah, but your arm wasn't restricted against a bed. What if a child abut, oh say, 35-40
pounds, age 6, is in a bed, asleep, somebody comes over without her hearing and uses a stun gun,
that taser you've got right there in your hand, and while holding her down uses it on her back and
her neck and face area?
ST: Well, that's an interesting idea because if I do this to a child of say 6 years of age while they're
in the middle of a very deep sleep, they're going to have fairly the same reaction I did. They're going
to want to get instinctually away from the pain. It would be almost be like being hit with a hot iron
while sleeping. It may take an extra second but you are going to wake up, kick, flail and scream....
Reporter: But didn't you tell our producer that if you do this to a hundred people you will get 100
different reactions? Right?
ST: You'll have about a hundred different reactions but most of them will be different screams,
different yelps, different people kicking. You will certainly not see any incapacitation at all. That's the
key to this issue is that you're NOT going to get incapacitation
Reporter: What are you gonna get?
ST: You're gonna get what I did just now and I'm still feeling it... I don't like the fact that I did that
to myself... I would want to get away from that pain...
Reporter: No temporary paralysis?
ST: None whatsoever. There's a lot of places on the internet, if you look up stun guns. It's
completely false as to what these things do as far as incapacitation rates. These are good devices to
keep somebody at bay at best.
Reporter: Is it possible, even though it may not have produced the desired reaction of incapacitation,
is it possible to produce the very same marks? Let's take a look, by the way, on the autopsy photo...
there you see, 3.5 cm apart, is it possible to produce those marks with what you have in your hand
there, Steven?
ST: I can't do it and I've never been able to replicate it on a person in my 7 years with the company.
Neither has anybody in our company been able to replicate those
Reporter: Are you telling me that your taser has never left a mark on any human being or any animal?
ST: It certainly leaves a mark in some cases like a reddish mark. I'm looking at my arm right now and
I've got little red spots here, all over the place - cause the electricity's dancing all over the place.
I'm not able to keep it in one spot. If I were to keep it in one spot, I might be able to get those two
3.5 cm type width spots but what's key here is even if I'm a 30 pound person, I'm going to get
instinctually away from this pain. If you were to have it, especially in two spots to be perfectly still, I
just don't know how....
Reporter: You're not being restrained and you don't have duct tape across your mouth but, Steven,
I'm afraid we're out of time. I want to thank you so much for coming here today and showing us how
it works, we appreciate it. Steven Tuttle of Taser International.
AFTER VIEWING LOU'S PRESENTATION
R: ...heard that story we had on during the break. Do you buy the theory? Does it hold water?
ST:I don't know. It's bewildering to us as a company. We were approached by Lou Smit in the very
beginning of the investigation. We provided a list of people who had the actual AIR TASER in
Colorado. We've also provided them a lot of information...
MISSING SECTION!!!!!!!
R: ...distinctive marks that appear to be the same spread. I think you have an AIR TASER with you
right now and there are in fact - - can you hold it up? - there are two electrodes in the end, right?
ST: There are two electrodes right here what they are talking about is actually leaving marks here
and they are about 3 1/2 cm apart and they're fairly similar in width if you were to measure those
two.
R: Now here's the big question - Can someone hold that to somebody without them flinching or
moving back?
ST: That's the crux of the bewilderment from our company's perspective. I'm going to go ahead and
do this on my arm. I don't like doing this at all but
R: I'm sure you don't
ST: I want to try to hold it there as long as I can. Now this would be simulating anybody's reaction.
(He grimaced and held the stun gun to his arm, he did NOT cry out or make any noise until he pulled
the stun gun away.)
UH! That is exceedingly painful to say the least, it's something instinctually I want to get away from
R: OK, but you're a grown man, Let's take ourselves to the crime scene. This is a little girl who was
asleep, she's 6 years old, what's to say a grown man can't hold her down and just simply hold that to
her?
ST: Well, that could be done, but what we're seeing is a mark that's not moving and as you saw my
arm flailing about... even if someone is heavier,holding that down, that person is going to wake up
immediately and instinctively want to get away from the pain.
R: What about the the notion of incapacitating someone? Is this, obviously when you're being
shocked there, you're out of it for that moment, but when you took it away, you were fine. Will it
knock somebody out?
ST: That is very, very crucial to the issue here, it will not knock someone out, it will not render them
mute. They will kick and scream. I did my best to not scream into the microphone here because it
was very uncomfortable.
R: Once you took it away, though, you were fine?
ST: ... once you stop it. And it's very loud when it's in the air. It does go much more silent as Lou
Smit pointed out with the pillow. It does go more silent when you stick it in the skin. However, the
minute that person breaks contact you do get that loud arcing sound. And again, it just simply would
not cause incapacitation
R: Mr. Tuttle, I can certainly understand why a company would not want their name or product
associated with a crime in this case. Do you see any reasonable possibility that it COULD have been a
TASER and that a child that young COULD have been incapacitated?
ST: It could have been ours and I certainly, we want to work with the investigators, we have from
the very beginning. Um, I don't know. It's bewildering to see if this was ours. The measurements are
close. They're not exact, but I don't know. That's what's stupifying - is you've got two separate
marks that are crystally clear, perfect, without any movement shown on the suspect's, oh, I'm sorry,
on JonBenét. I just don't understand that, how that can be there. (Showing his arm) I don't have the
marks here, they're all over the place. I'm not sure if you can see... from me moving, they've gone
everywhere. Ah,
R: Certainly not as deep as what we saw there. You mentioned... we're quickly running out of time...
you mentioned that you provided list of those who had been sold. Is this something you have to
register to buy?
ST: Yes We do require as a company that if a person purchases an AIR TASER, we are going to know
who that person is. They are registered in a data base and if it's used in the TASER mode, which
would incapacitate somebody, it's going to emit little confetti tags that would match back to the
owner. In this case the taser was not used so we don't have these confetti tags. But we do have
serial numbers. If they find one, we could match that up to who it was sold to.
R: Steven Tuttle, we do appreciate you spending the time with us today.
ST: Thank you


1. "the child was still"
In response to message #0


ST: It could have been ours and I certainly, we want to work with the investigators, we have from the
very beginning. Um, I don't know. It's bewildering to see if this was ours. The measurements are close.
They're not exact, but I don't know. That's what's stupifying - is you've got two separate marks that
are crystally clear, perfect, without any movement shown on the suspect's, oh, I'm sorry, on
JonBenét. I just don't understand that, how that can be there.
The problem he had was that the child hadn't jumped away - - but she clearly could have been
pushed into the bed when she was stunned in the back - - a 45 pound child could have been kept
fairly still under those circumstances.
As for the face marks - - she could have been held still, she might (mercifully) have been unconscious.

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
LovelyPigeon
Charter Member
2449 posts
Jul-20-01, 12:46 PM (GMT)

2. "I saw this interview"
In response to message #0


and I have to note that Tuttle did not scream or make any loud noises when he stunned himself very
very briefly.
Why anyone wants to insist that JonBenét would have screamed loudly if stunned refutes the
evidence Tuttle provided live and also the reports of field testing available online.

Remove | Alert | IP
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LovelyPigeon
Charter Member
2449 posts
Jul-20-01, 12:49 PM (GMT)

3. "also note:"
In response to message #2


STuttle: Well, actually, we helped supply that Air Taser for the testing. We were as interested in this
case as Lou Smit is. We've worked with him from the very beginning of the case. The one thing that's
interesting is that the marks that the pigs have do look fairly similar to what's on JonBenét Ramsey.
Tuttle acknowledges that the marks made on the the pigs by the Air Taser he supplied to Lou Smit
look similar to marks on JonBenét.

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

Seal
Charter Member
25 posts
Jul-20-01, 01:03 PM (GMT)

4. "OKay...no there is no reason for this action...but, we could "
In response to message #3


LAST EDITED ON Jul-20-01 AT 01:05 PM (EST)
be discussing a sadistic killer...Could those stun gun marks have been put on JonBenet AFTER she
went uuconscious? Maybe as a means to find out whether she was still alive? Perhaps even as the
garrotte was cutting her breath off...and she didn't have the strength to rebel against the effects of
the stun gun.
Another thing...if JonBenet was sound asleep she wouldn't flinch from the stun gun because unlike the
demontrator, she wouldn't have known it was coming.

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
DonBradley
Charter Member
596 posts
Jul-20-01, 01:05 PM (GMT)

5. "Public Relations"
In response to message #3


Yes...'similar'...thats as close as the company wants to get...no closer. They don't want their product
associated with a notorious crime.
So there will be as much 'fluff' as possible and as little substance as possible...but they will emphasize
their 'cooperation' and 'interest in the case' while distancing their product and their company as much
as possible.

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
jameson
Charter Member
5676 posts
Jul-20-01, 01:19 PM (GMT)

6. "BORG LIES"
In response to message #5


1. That the stun gun marks don't match
2. That the people from Air Taser totally deny the possibility
3. That Lou Smit has gone back on his belief that it was a stun gun - - most likely an Air Taser
4. That Dr. Mike Dobersen has said that he can't identify the marks without the body being exhumed.
The BORG is LYING - - we have the quotes - - everyone can see the transcripts, see the tapes.
The BORG simply writes misinformation as FACT and figures that if they write something three times it
might become something real. But it doesn't.

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

LovelyPigeon
Charter Member
2449 posts
Jul-20-01, 01:20 PM (GMT)

7. "field reports on Taser use"
In response to message #5


these are from the Air Taser manufactorer's site:
http://www.airtaser.com/Web_2000/M26Uses.htm
Descriptions are given of grown men, agitated and physically threatening police who are stunned by
the Air Taser (in dart mode). The men are not described as screaming after being hit, but they are
described as being knocked to the ground.
at the home page http://www.airtaser.com there are various links to field reports and some video
tapes (which I didn't access) that indicate in their titles that the stun victim is knocked to the ground
by the stun action.

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
why_nut
Charter Member
8 posts
Jul-20-01, 02:45 PM (GMT)

8. "LovelyPigeon"
In response to message #7


"Descriptions are given of grown men, agitated and physically threatening police who are stunned by
the Air Taser (in dart mode). The men are not described as screaming after being hit, but they are
described as being knocked to the ground."
....................................................................................................
I downloaded the videos. Where there is audio at all, the targets of stun guns are heard yelling in pain
immediately upon the electrical charge being applied. In all cases, the person being hit did fall down,
but also immediately, upon falling down, began to roll or flail as if to get away from the source of the
pain. Not one person was paralyzed or rendered unconscious.

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

jameson
Charter Member
5676 posts
Jul-20-01, 02:55 PM (GMT)

9. "not unconscious"
In response to message #8


I was clearly told that people do not lose consciousness - - they become a bit disoriented, perhaps,
but the important thing is that they totally lose control of their muscles - - they are like jello -- can't
fight back, can't scream - - they are totally NOT IN CONTROL.
Any sound they emit is beyone their control.
Some people make a sound, others do not. A pillow over her face - - or a hand - or being pushed into
the bedding could have silenced her.

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
why_nut
Charter Member
8 posts
Jul-20-01, 03:38 PM (GMT)

10. "Jameson"
In response to message #9


"I was clearly told that people do not lose consciousness - - they become a bit disoriented, perhaps,
but the important thing is that they totally lose control of their muscles - - they are like jello -- can't
fight back, can't scream - - they are totally NOT IN CONTROL."
....................................................................................................
What you have been told is not accurate, according to the videos, so you may wish to get your
information from what you can clearly see. The videos do not suggest, they demonstrate, that when a
person is hit by a stun gun, their legs will fall out from underneath them if they are standing, but once
they have fallen, they are entirely capable of voluntary movement. Look at the video on the Air Taser
site, the one called "Dangerous Traffic Stop." There you will see a man who is hit with a Taser.
Immediately upon being hit and feeling the pain it inflicts, he controls his actions enough to lay down
on the ground in accord with the officer's instructions. This is not within minutes, but within two
seconds. Unless you have DSL, you are probably disinclined to download the 42mb file, but you should,
it contains video of news stories that involved the use of the Taser. Again, the targets of
stun-gunning demonstrate that they are capable of controlled movement, though they use that
control to attempt to get away from the pain. If you want to behave as you accuse the BPD of doing,
and ignore evidence that prevents you from fitting a stun gun's consequences into your favored
theory, you certainly have that right. If you want to take a higher road than the BPD, though, you will
look at all of the videos and judge for yourself whether JonBenet would have acted in a radically
different manner than the targets are shown doing.

``~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
shadi
Charter Member
7 posts
Jul-20-01, 04:49 PM (GMT)

11. "apple and oranges"
In response to message #10


The stun gun shown in the video is different than the type believed to be used on JB. Also, in the
video that shows the volunteer being shot, there is no scream. Nevertheless, the videos show the
firing type stungun as opposed to the one that is pressed against the skin. BIG DIFFERENCE. If you
hold the electrodes against the skin firmly for 2-3 seconds, marks will appear. This can not be
recreated by stunning yourself as we all have a basic survival instinct to pull away. If you are held
firmly and the electrodes are placed against the skin you can totally incapacitate someone. Have
someone try it on you.

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
jameson
Charter Member
5676 posts
Jul-20-01, 07:20 PM (GMT)

12. ""mashed""
In response to message #11


I have spoken directly to a few college kids who actually did some stun gun experiments "for kicks' and
THEY told me that if the stun gun was "mashed" into the subject, the results were more "effective"
than if it was just a "short buzz."
The stun gun was designed to drop a man weighing 200 pounds with a short burst. I think it is
perfectly reasonable to believe JonBenét would have been incapable of struggling for minutes - - long
minutes - if she was the subject of such an attack.

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
LovelyPigeon
Charter Member
2449 posts
Jul-20-01, 07:32 PM (GMT)

13. "No unconscious adults"
In response to message #0


but I can't help but wonder what the results would be on a child.
I downloaded the Dangerous Traffic Stop video from that site, and the man stunned in that one
doesn't scream or flail about when he is stunned. The adults become compliant once they are stunned,
and I would imagine a child would also be compliant afterwards to avoid the stun occuring again.
As shadi posted, the 1-2 second pulse given by the dart mode of the Air Taser on an adult might be
considerably less stunning than an extended pulse of electricity in the contact stungun mode against a
45 pound child. There are no reports yet on the results of a child being stunned by direct & prolonged
contact by an Air Taser.
The state of Virginia suspended use of stun guns by law enforcement this Spring in response to the
death of a prison inmate who was stunned repeatedly while strapped down. He died of cardiac
fibrillation. http://www.geocities.com/lovelypigeon/st...soner.html The marks left on his
abdomen look very much like the marks on JonBenét's back, IMO.

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
jameson
Charter Member
5676 posts
Jul-20-01, 08:04 PM (GMT)

14. "response to MM"
In response to message #13


MM wrote to LP - - "You neglected to quote this statement from Steve Tuttle about the marks on
JonBenet: "We have never seen those types of marks when you touch somebody with a stun gun. We
are talking hundreds of people that have been touched with these devices. I can't replicate those
marks." (Boulder Daily Camera, May 2, 2001)
What does it take to make people understand - - the marks can NOT be replicated unless the subject
is injured THEN DIES! When a dead person (or pig0 is zapped, there is no mark. When a living person is
zapped, the body immediately starts to heal and the marks simply are not the same.
Further, Tuttle told both Coffman and myself that they had never done tests with the stun guns to
document MARKS - - just "effects".
Steve Tuttle was totally lost before seeing Smit on TODAY. He seemed more confused (and upset)
after.
More from Coffman...
"Got that? The Air Taser stun gun has NEVER made the kind of marks that are seen on JonBenet.
Steve Tuttle also pointed out that the Air Taser does not render people unconscious. He said that the
stun gun theory "defies the logic of what the weapon does." The stun gun theory is based on a
misunderstanding about what stun guns can do to people."
Get this, Frank - the Air Taser Stun Gun may not have made those kinds of marks in the lab or on FOX
when Tuttle briefly touched his arm with the stun gun and pulled away... but it certainly DID make
similar marks when HELD to the skin of a pig before he DIED!
Keep the blinders on, Frank....

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  hearing scheduled
Posted by: jameson245 - 02-19-2017, 03:03 PM - Forum: Burke sues Werner Spitz for $150,000,000.00 - Replies (2)

A hearing in this case is scheduled for Feb. 24th, 2017 at 10 in the morning. Dr. Werner Spitz's motion for summary disposition will be ruled on. 

I hope they don't settle, that there are depositions and a trial exposing just how wrong CBS was when they put on their program;  I think they lied to their "experts" and would love to see that come out.  If I am wrong, I welcome THAT information.  Just tell the truth and get this solved.

But I fear Lin Wood is more interested in the money than the truth.  I expect a quiet settlement and a hush from Werner Spitz.

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  Thomas Hargrove research site
Posted by: jameson245 - 02-19-2017, 02:29 PM - Forum: What is in the news - staying up to date - No Replies

Public website has searchable data on cold cases




Open-source website Murder Accountability Project gives the public free access to data about homicide cases from federal, state and local governments, and the FBI.


The Murder Accountability Project “is the most complete data on U.S. homicides available anywhere,” the website said.
The database includes two major FBI datasets: The Uniform Crime Report from 1965 to the present and the Supplementary Homicide Report from 1976 to the present.

Anyone can use the site to search for cases based on location, weapon, time frame, and the victim’s sex, age and race, and look for connections or patterns.
“This site is especially useful in cases in which an offender is suspected of killing more than one victim,” the website said. “Possible additional victims may be identified by checking all available reports.”

Authors of the website use the 1996 killing of 6-year-old JonBenet Ramsey as an example.

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  Parents who kill
Posted by: jameson245 - 02-19-2017, 01:59 PM - Forum: Intruder evidence - No Replies

I know some parents do kill their kids, but in the end police find a reason.

They are mentally ill like Andrea Yates who drowned her 5 children

or they are heavily medicated on something that alters their personality and leads to a time of violence like David Crespi who murdered his twin daughters in NC

OR they are truly evil people who would sacrifice their babies for money  like Ronald O'Bryan who poisoned his 8 year old son with Halloween candy

or those like Diane Downs and theythye wanted a man who did not want kids..

But try as they might, police could find no evidence of anything like that in the Ramsey case.

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  The experiment
Posted by: jameson245 - 02-19-2017, 01:30 PM - Forum: Handwriting - No Replies

Please try to write a full page at normal speed and make these changes - - just change the vowels - - for the a make a circle with stem at the top for apple, Make an oval egg for the letter e, for the I make a square ice cube, for the o make an x and for the u make an up arrow.

How far can you get before you mess up? Not far, I am sure. Not writing at normal speed.

Now imagine doing it right after killing your child

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  Jaycee Dugard's experience
Posted by: jameson245 - 02-19-2017, 12:57 PM - Forum: Stun Gun - Replies (1)

The following are excerpts from the 135 pages of Dugard's grand jury testimony unsealed by Phimister:

Dugard: And all of a sudden, his hand shoots out of the car window, and I feel this shock. And I stumble back into the, into the bushes. And...I'm sorry.

Q: That's all right. Take your time.
Dugard: He gets out and I stumble back into the bushes. I'm sitting now in the bushes, trying to get away, but I feel like my whole body is — wouldn't work. It was tingly and I can't — nothing works. All of a sudden, I'm in the car, and there's something on top of me, and I feel like there's pressure on me. ... I was put on the floorboard and then something thrown on top of me, and then legs, pressure, face down. I don't know what happened after that because I think I — because I don't remember the car pulling away, or I felt like I blacked out or something.
___
Q: Did you ever, do you recall, during the time while you were in the car, seeing a second person in the car?
Dugard: No. But then I could hear a voice sometime later. I don't know when. The man in the front, all of a sudden, the pressure was off, like I woke up, and I could hear the car door slam like someone was getting into the front seat, the passenger side. And the person that took me was like, handing me something to — said, 'Do you want something to drink?' And then I heard voices in the front, and the man said, 'I can't believe we got away with it,' and he started laughing.
[url=http://www.nbcnews.com/id/31066137/media-kit/][/url]

!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

I believe she was given a direct hit with the stun gun and that caused her to "black out" in the car.  I think when JonBenet was hit in the back she was pressed into the mattress and the voltage was so high, and she was so small, she was rendered unconscious.  Remember, we see grown men fall when zapped, but they are not being held firm and can pull away from the weapon.

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  Question #1
Posted by: jameson245 - 02-18-2017, 04:37 PM - Forum: Questions for Fleet and Priscilla White - Replies (1)

PATSY RAMSEY: I just remember hearing
2 something that John Fernie was going to detain
3 Fleet because he was in no condition to be put
4 on that plane.
5 TOM HANEY: No condition due to?
6 PATSY RAMSEY: He was -- and like I
7 say, I am kind of like just catching, you know,
8 wafts of these conversations. But that was my
9 first recollection. I picked up on something
10 that Fleet was not acting right. And they were
11 going to keep him from going on the private
12 plane back to Atlanta.
13 So anyway, I didn't want to think
14 too much about it, and then when we were in
15 Atlanta, I just sort of remember Priscilla
16 standing in my mother's living room, family
17 room, you know, just kind of like this and
18 saying, "well, I know what's going on" and she
19 said, "if you would give me a few minutes of
20 your time, I could let you in on some things."
21 And I turned to her and I said,
22 "Priscilla, how can you know so much?" And I
23 said, "I am the mother of this child. And I
24 know nothing."
25 TOM HANEY: What was she referring
0076
1 to?
2 PATSY RAMSEY: I don't have a clue.

My question - What would you have told her?

I really hope to see a book from these two one day with all the details.  Let them make money off the case, who cares if we get to the truth, expose the killer and find justice for all involved?

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