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  List of Christmas gifts... 1996
Posted by: Summer Dawn - 03-20-2017, 10:14 AM - Forum: Christmas Day, 1996 - Replies (1)

List of Christmas gifts... 1996

Burke got Nintendo64 · (DOI- page 2)
Burke got a remote control car · (DOI- page 3)
John got a gumball machine · (DOI- page 4)
JonBenet got a bicycle · (DOI- page 2)
JonBenet got a My Twinn Doll ·( DOI- pages 3, 4, 32, 242)
JonBenet got a gold bracelet · ( DOI- page 344)
JonBenet got a ring from Nedra ·( National Enquirer book- page 51)
JonBenet got a necklace from Pam · ( NE book page -51)
Patsy got a bicycle · (DOI- page 3)
Patsy got green paper ornament · ( DOI- page 274)

March 18th,2000
Death of Innocence 

DOI Page 274:

"Then Haney asked if I remembered what JonBenet had gotten me for Christmas, and I became very emotional. I remembered a little green construction paper ornament JonBenet had made in her class at school. When I had opened it on December 25, 1996, I saw her school picture with the message: "your gift is ME." How true, how very, very true. I had thought the ornament was lost in the shuffle, but Trip DeMuth assured me they had it in their possession. Of all the hundreds of items that were confiscated from both of our homes, that is the one item I most want returned."

DOI Page 344:

"I had given her a tiny gold bracelet on the evening of December 23, 1996, placing it on her wrist in much the same way Mike was doing now. It was the evening of our family Christmas party, and since she was all dressed up, I had decided to let her open the gift early so she could wear it during the holiday. The bracelet was inscribed with her name on the front and on the back with the date she was actually supposed to receive it: 12-25-96. I hope I can someday get that bracelet back. It's part of the vast number of items still in police custody."

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  Patsy on Christmas morning
Posted by: Summer Dawn - 03-20-2017, 10:07 AM - Forum: Christmas Day, 1996 - Replies (3)

Excerpts from National Enquirer book, "JonBenet, The Police Files" by Don Gentile and David Wright

1997 April 30 - Taped Interrogation interview of Patsy Ramsey by Steve Thomas and Tom Trujillo in Colorado

NE Book Page 41: 

Tom Trujillo: "Actually, let's start back on the morning of the 25th, um, let's kind of break it down into small hours. What time did you guys get up that morning?"

Patsy Ramsey: "Early"

Tom Trujillo: "Before sunrise?"

Patsy Ramsey: "Six-ish probably."

Tom Trujillo: "Okay. Patsy, take through, say, the first three hours of, of Christmas morning with you and John and Burke and JonBenet. Kind of, kind of in a by minute, step-by-step of what you guys did for the first couple or three hours."

Patsy Ramsey: "Well, we went down the stairs and passed out Christmas presents."

Tom Trujillo: "About how long did it take you to pass out Christmas presents? I know you talked about you kind of did it slowly.."

Patsy Ramsey: "Yeah."

Tom Trujillo: "About how long did that take?"

Patsy Ramsey: "I don't know. Hour, maybe... I mean to pass them out and opening them. I try to get everybody to take turns, you know. Of course, their piles are bigger than my pile so... they open two or three and then I open one..."

Tom Trujillo: "What did you guys do after you open the presents up?"

Patsy Ramsey: "Uh, I think we made pancakes."

Tom Trujillo: "Okay. Had some breakfast? Um, about how long did it take to eat breakfast?"

Patsy Ramsey: "I don't know, a half hour."

Tom Trujillo: "After, after breakfast how did the family split? What did you guys do?"

Patsy Ramsey: "Oh, the kids were just playing with their stuff, you know, and I was, I don't remember exactly... I was, you know, trying to get clothes ready to go two different places. I remember that.. And then a bunch of kids started showing up to, you know, they want to see what each other got and, you know. Burke set up his Nintendo, Nintendo 64 and..."

Tom Trujillo: "During the early morning hours, the morning hours before the kids got there, did everybody go and get dressed, I take it?"

Patsy Ramsey: "At some point in the day, yeah."

Tom Trujillo: "During the day, about what time did, uh, John go down to the hanger and check on the plane?"

Patsy Ramsey: "Oh, I don't know. I don't know, lunchtime, after lunch, I, I don't remember."

Tom Trujillo: "Okay, did you have lunch that day?"

Patsy Ramsey: "I'm sure we did."

Tom Trujillo: "Okay. Do you have any idea about, what did you have for lunch?
Patsy Ramsey: "I don't remember."

Tom Trujillo: "About how long was John gone when he went out to check on the plane?"

Patsy Ramsey: "Oh, probably a couple of hours."

Tom Trujillo: "So he left about noon, afternoon sometime. Gone till two, 3:00 in the afteroon?"

Patsy Ramsey: "Um, yeah."

Tom Trujillo: "Okay. And were... kids over to the house that whole time playing with John, excuse me, JonBenet and Burke?"

Patsy Ramsey: "Uh, a better part of that day, I would say."

Tom Trujillo: "Okay. Did, uh, did Burke and JonBenet play together during that time? Did the little girls and little boys mix up at all?"

Patsy Ramsey: "Yeah."

Tom Trujillo: "Play together."

Patsy Ramsey: "Yeah, they were all, yeah, a lot of them were in Burke's room playing that Nintenedo and she was, I remember coming up there and checking on them and they were, the boys were mostly sitting around playing the Nintendo and she was, had this little jewelry making kit right there in the, in the doorway of Burke's room... so I made a couple with her."

Excerpts from National Enquirer book, "JonBenet, The Police Files" by Don Gentile and David Wright

04/30/97 - Taped Interrogation interview of Patsy Ramsey by Steve Thomas and Tom Trujillo in Colorado

NE Book Page 47:

Tom Trujillo: "Okay. Got home about 8:30, 9:00. What's the first thing you guys do when you got home that night? Actually, let me step back. Befofe you got home, you went over to.."

Patsy Ramsey: "Walkers and dropped off a little gift... and Stines and dropped off a little gift and drove home and JonBenet was asleep. She had fallen asleep in the car."

Tom Trujillo: "Did you have to wake her up to get her inside or..?"

Patsy Ramsey: "Well, she was just really zonked and John carried her up to her room... and, I, uh, you know, ran up behind him and, or in front of him, I can't remember. Maybe, or it might have been in front of him to turn the bed down. And he laid her down and I got her undressed and put her, I left her shirt on her and, uh, went to the bathroom and tried to find some pajama pants and all I could find was some, like long underwear pants... and put those on."

Tom Trujillo: "What color of top did she wear to bed that night. What color top was she wearing actually to the Whites' house like?

Patsy Ramsey: "Well, she wore this little outfit that I had gotten her at the Gap. We had a little, little riff over that 'cause I wanted her to wear, I was wearing a red sweater and I wanted her to wear this red sweater with her black velvet pants, 'cause I was wearing black velvet pants and it was Christmas and all that. And she didn't want to wear the red shirt just because I was wearing it. She wanted to wear the shirt that went with the outfit which was a Gap out fit that I had bought her when we went shopping for her and it was a little white, kind of neck like this.."

Tom Trujillo: "Kind of a crew neck?"

Patsy Ramsey: "...Crew neck and it had a little, little rhinestone, little kind of sequin kind of star thing on it."

Tom Trujillo: "Okay."

Patsy Ramsey: "So I just left that on her."

Tom Trujillo: "Okay. And I'm sorry. What kind of pants, what color of pants...?"

Patsy Ramsey: "They were black velvet. Black velvet jeans, kind of like, from the Gap. Some little black velvet vest."

Tom Trujillo: "And what were you wearing Patsy, a, a red turtleneck and black...?"

Patsy Ramsey: "Velvet jeans, yeah."

Tom Trujillo: "Okay."

Patsy Ramsey: "Velvet pants. And I have a Christmas sweater I was wearing."

Tom Trujillo: "And what color was that?"

Patsy Ramsey: "Red with all kinds of..."

Tom Trujillo: "And that was over the turtleneck?"

Patsy Ramsey: "Yeah."

Tom Trujillo: "..When you say you wore black velvet jeans, were those like a, a, were they a jean material..?"

Patsy Ramsey: "No, they're, no, no, no. They're black velvet."

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  Burke Ramsey OWN WORDS ! Dr Phil Show
Posted by: Summer Dawn - 03-20-2017, 09:53 AM - Forum: 911 call - Replies (3)

Burke Ramsey denied he was on the 911  call  Patsy placed after she found a ransom note and realized that her daughter was missing.

During the conversation, Dr. Phil brings up the call, and asks Burke, who was 9 years old at the time of the murder, if he's heard of it.

Burke: Oh, it's been brought up a bunch of times, because they think I'm on it or something.
Dr. Phil: Where were you during the phone call?
Burke: In my bed.
Dr. Phil: How do you know?
Burke: I don't remember getting up until my dad came in there.
Dr. Phil (to John Ramsey): Where was Burke?
John: We checked his bedroom immediately, he was asleep in bed. That was pure fiction.

The 911 operator who received Patsy Ramsey's call that night claims to have heard voices  on the other end of the line during the call, and speculation has spread around wondering if Burke's was one of them. John and Patsy Ramsey were cleared of suspicion in the case years ago.

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  Advice from posters
Posted by: jameson245 - 03-20-2017, 09:21 AM - Forum: How to solve this mystery - Replies (12)

Go back to the names of people who were not really good but REASONABLE suspects.  People who were in Boulder at the time and were suspected by others who knew them - co-workers, classmates, family.  Research every one on thatlist to see what they have done Iin the past 20 years.  

The person who killed JonBenet was not like most of us, he was a sadistic person, a pedophile, and I believe he left his DNA mixed with her blood in her panties.  We have a good profile of that DNA.  It was NOT a group DNA found there, just the victim and someone there when she was bleeding from a sexual assault.

This is a quote from Investigator Andy Horita's investigative report to the DA.  (Pg 8 of 16)

Amy Jeanguenat, the DNA expert who anlyzed the panties sample at Bode Technology,  "stated that she saw NO indication that a third party contributed to the mixture and would 'testify in court' to that effect."

That quote is worth repeating.  

Amy Jeanguenat "...stated that she saw NO indication that a third party contributed to the mixture and would 'testify in court' to that effect."

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  calling for a Grand Jury
Posted by: jameson245 - 03-19-2017, 09:30 PM - Forum: Grand Jury Indictments - Replies (8)

Quote:1998-03-12: BPD-PR #65 - Police ask District Attorney to convene a grand jury in Ramsey investigation

March 12, 1998
Contact: Jennifer Bray, Media Relations, 441-3090

Police ask District Attorney to convene a grand jury in Ramsey investigation

(Ramsey Update #65)
Boulder Police Chief Tom Koby and Commander Mark Beckner today requested and recommended that the Boulder District Attorney convene a grand jury investigation into the homicide of JonBenet Ramsey. While there is still some investigation left to be done, both Chief Koby and Commander Beckner believe the investigation has progressed to the point at which the authority of a grand jury is necessary in order to have a complete investigation. A grand jury can be utilized to obtain sworn testimony, to obtain items of evidentiary value not otherwise available through routine investigative methods, and to review the case for purposes of seeking an indictment against the person or persons responsible for the death of JonBenet.

Commander Beckner has worked closely with the District Attorney’s Office in recent weeks in preparation of the recommendation for a grand jury. According to Beckner, “We only make this request/recommendation after 14 grueling months of investigation, much consideration and thought, and after consultation with attorneys familiar with, and experienced in the use, of grand juries. We believe the investigation has reached the point at which a grand jury will be very helpful in completing the investigation, thus, our recommendation to the District Attorney.”

As the investigation progressed in recent weeks, the direction the investigation should take became very clear. As stated at a Dec. 5, 1997 news conference, the police were working toward one of three options:

--- Seek an arrest warrant and prosecution --- Ask for a grand jury investigation, or --- Inactivate the case until such time that additional information becomes available

Out of a task list that has now grown to 90 tasks, 64 tasks have been completed or worked on as thoroughly as possible. “The longer we worked on the case, the clearer it became that inactivating the case would not be appropriate,” said Beckner. “The appropriate step at this time is to ask for a grand jury to assist us in gathering additional admissible evidence.”

The next step will be for the police to assist the District Attorney’s Office in the review of case files and evidence. Given the volume of information gathered to date, it is expected that it will take some time for the District Attorney’s Office to complete it’s review of the case files prior to any decision being made. “We have worked well with the DA’s Office in the last five months and I expect to work even closer with them in the months to follow,” added Beckner.


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Posted by: jameson245 - 03-19-2017, 09:26 PM - Forum: Grand Jury Indictments - Replies (1)

Quote:1997-12-07: Daily Camera: Current jury members

Current jury members
Sunday, December 7, 1997

Under Colorado law, Boulder County must maintain a permanent grand jury, because its population is more than 100,000.

Although there is talk that the JonBenet Ramsey murder case may go to a grand jury, the current members may well not hear the case: State law dictates that permanent grand juries must be replaced every 18 months.

The current members of Boulder County's Grand Jury, seated until May, are:

Foreperson Melissa Gregory, Lafayette
Assistant foreperson Steven Wells, Longmont
Victoria Dietz, Longmont
Patrick Graninger, Louisville
Thomas Herman, Longmont
Manfredt Kledt, Boulder
Viola Kniceley, Louisville
Cedric Peebles, Louisville
Robert Phelan Jr., Boulder
Tincy Royer, Broomfield
Dorothy Showers, Longmont
Lorraine Simon, Boulder

Alternates are:

R. Brent Cherry, Boulder
Janice Jankovsky, Broomfield
Mark Laitos, Longmont
Linda Little, Boulder

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  Geraldine Vodicka's daughter
Posted by: jameson245 - 03-19-2017, 08:05 PM - Forum: Names to remember - No Replies

Lorraine Florence Lawrence
Died December 4, 1996
What some believed to be strange circumstances
Her mother, Geraldine Vodicka was a former Ramsey housekeeper



Thursday, December 5, 1996
Section: MAIN
Edition: FIRST
Page: 1A
By ALLI KRUPSKI Camera Staff Writer
Caption: PHOTO:
By Crissy Pascual Daily Camera

CRIME SCENE: Police investigate the site where a construction worker found the body of a 37-year-old Boulder woman.

As her grieving mother and sister watched Wednesday morning, authorities removed the body of a 37-year-old Boulder woman from a construction site ditch close to her apartment near the North Boulder Recreation Center.

A Twin Peaks Excavating foreman discovered the body of Lorraine Florence Lawrence face down in the hole near the Boulder Housing Authority's apartment complex in the 3100 block of Broadway about 7:50 a.m. Wednesday, Boulder police said.

"We are treating it as a suspicious death," said city spokesman Kelvin McNeill. "It appears that the hole was properly covered and access to it was limited."

Police would not comment on the condition of the body or possible suspects. The Boulder County coroner's office planned to conduct an autopsy today.

Workers had covered the 6-foot hole with two pieces of plywood and two heavy buckets Tuesday night.

"We had it secured, so nobody could lift the plywood. It was safe so nobody could fall in, and there was equipment parked around it," said J.D. Lemmel, who found the body.

"When I got there this morning, the plywood was broken. And when I looked in, she was only in panties and a T-shirt," Lemmel said.

Lemmel notified police, who said they found a trail of blood leading from the apartment building to the hole, as well as a broken beer bottle near the scene. Investigators removed the body about 1 p.m. as runners and recreation center users stopped and stared.

Two murders occurred in Boulder in 1995, and as of July none had taken place in the city this year, McNeill said.

Geraldine Vodicka, Lawrence's mother, said her daughter "had epilepsy, but I don't think that's why she's dead today. I think someone killed her."

Dominique Vodicka, Lawrence's sister who moved into the North Boulder apartment complex three months ago, said: "A neighbor saw her last night at 9 p.m. sitting on the ice in her underwear, with a black eye and blood dripping from her eye and there was a ... guy walking near her. (The neighbor) made her go inside, but he never called us."

The neighbor should have informed the family, said Jonathan Smith, a family friend.

"If it looked like she had been punched or hit, and if he had called us or the police, she would be alive today," Smith said."She wouldn't have hurt a fly, and she didn't deserve to die."

Family members said they will remember Lawrence's gentle disposition. The mother of a 9-year-old son, Chad, and the oldest of five children, Lawrence had worked as a bagger at Safeway at 2798 Arapahoe Ave. for the past four years, Geraldine Vodicka said.

"Lorraine liked reading and taking long walks," her mother said, noting that Lawrence had lived in the complex for roughly nine years. "She was just a sweet person who never bothered anybody or fought with anyone."

But Lawrence had encountered violence in the past several years, according to records from the Boulder County Sheriff's Department. Records show she reported an assault in May 1990, a domestic dispute in January 1991 and saw a friend harass her sister, Elaine Romero, in October 1996.

Neighbors said they occasionally heard Lawrence argue with friends, but did not notice any unusual noise Tuesday night. Some residents, however, said they heard a car speeding away during the evening.

Irving Tejeda, who lives in the apartment next to Lawrence's, said he noticed her "wide open" front door at 7 a.m. Wednesday. "The lights were out, and it was cold," he said.

Staff writer Margie McAllister contributed to this report.


Friday, December 20, 1996
Section: TODAY
Edition: FIRST
Page: 1B
By ALLI KRUPSKI Camera Staff Writer

The Boulder County coroner's office ruled Thursday that a 37-year-old woman found dead in a construction site hole near her apartment died of exposure to the cold as the result of seizure disorder complications.

But Boulder police continue to investigate the death of Lorraine Florence Lawrence.

"We need to check on foot and hand prints on some items," said police Sgt. Tom Wickman.

A Twin Peaks Excavating foreman discovered Lawrence's body about 7:50 a.m. Dec. 4 face down in a 6-foot ditch at the Boulder Housing Authority's apartment complex in the 3100 block of Broadway. "She was only in panties and a T-shirt, but we had the hole properly secured," said J.D. Lemmel, who found the body. "We put cones around it, and when I got there in the morning, the plywood was broken," he said.

Workers covered the hole Dec. 3 with two sheets of particle board and two heavy tractor buckets, police said.

"People who have seizures are known to be in a state of confusion following a seizure. We believe that she was in that state and was wandering around the complex," said Dan Pruett, a medical investigator with the coroner's office. "At some point, she fell into the construction hole, where she was exposed to the cold."

Neighbors heard a scream and a thump between 1 and 2 a.m. Dec. 4, said Detective Ron Gosage.

Some residents said they noticed a man and a woman arguing and a car speeding away during the evening.

About 11 p.m., a resident saw Lawrence sitting outside on ice in her underwear with blood dripping from a cut above her right eye. The neighbor escorted Lawrence back to her apartment.

Police would not comment on a pool of blood and a broken beer bottle on ice found in the parking lot about 20 yards from the hole. Investigators also located blood inside Lawrence's apartment and skid marks outside the complex.

"There are a lot of things present, but nothing that links them together," said Cmdr. John Eller, noting that at one point 15 detectives worked on the case. "There is no outward evidence of any criminal act. We may never know the answer to exactly what happened."

Residents, however, said Lawrence walked around in her panties in front of the North Boulder Recreation Center on Oct. 6 and again nine days before she died, Wickman said.

"It shows a pattern of behavior," he said. Police plan to test the particle board for weight tolerance levels, he added.

"I don't know if she was heavy enough to have fallen in," said Geraldine Vodicka, Lawrence's mother. "I don't know what to think about what happened or how long she could have been in there."

Coroner's officials do not know how long Lawrence remained in the ditch.

"She was either too confused to get out or couldn't get out," Pruett said.

Medical investigators did not find evidence of sexual assault or alcohol, Pruett said. Lawrence, however, had injested cocaine and an anti-convulsant drug, Phenytoin, sometime before her death, he said.

"We don't know how much or when she took it," Pruett said. "She wasn't wearing a lot of clothing, and she could just have easily have died if the hole wasn't there."

The coroner's conclusions, however, did not reassure some residents of the apartment complex.

"There are just too many unanswered questions," said Christine Gomez, who has lived in the complex for six months. "Until they get answered, I don't know if I'll feel safe here again."


Quote:1997-01-10: A tale of two victims: questions surround handling of two deaths

A tale of two victims: questions surround handling of two deaths
Camera Staff Writer
Friday, January 10, 1997

John and Patsy Ramsey's daughter died in Boulder two weeks ago. She was found strangled and molested - with duct tape over her mouth and her skull fractured - in the basement of her parents' 15-room Tudor home. Tight-lipped police have spared nothing in t heir meticulous search for the killer or killers of the beautiful little girl - the youngest daughter of a wealthy corporate executive and a former beauty queen.

Geraldine Vodicka's daughter also died in Boulder in December. She was found nearly naked with her face bloodied and beaten, face-down in a construction ditch near the low-income housing project where she lived. The coroner ruled the death of the epil eptic grocery bagger - who was reported to have been an alcoholic - accidental. Police continue investigating, although Boulder Police Chief Tom Koby says he concurs with the coroner.

Boulder police say the murder of 6-year-old JonBenet Ramsey was the only homicide in 1996. Others aren't so sure.

Some neighbors and friends of 37-year-old Lorraine Florence Lawrence, who died Dec. 4, said they don't believe the assessment that she died of exposure in a hole at a construction site near a Boulder Housing Authority apartment complex. They believe L awrence was killed.

Comparing how police handled the two cases, they said, justice may be different for a poor woman like Lawrence and an affluent family like the Ramseys.

"I really believe justice will be served in the Ramsey case," said Tiffiney Johnson, a friend of Lawrence's who lives in the same housing com plex. "It's just the difference between rich and poor ... There's no doubt she was killed and everyone knows it."

Repeated attempts Thursday to contact detectives regarding the case were unsuccessful.

The neighbor who identified the body said Lawrence had been beaten so badly she couldn't recognize her friend's face. Lawrence's teeth were broken, her eyes were bloodied and blackened. A trail of blood led from her apartment to where her body was found, and police reportedly found a broken beer bottle next to a pool of blood about 20 yards away.

But two weeks after her death, the Boulder County coroner released an autopsy report saying Lawrence fell into the hole - presumably dazed from a seizure - and died of exposure to the cold.

There has been no explanation of how she could have replaced plywood and two heavy buckets over the hole, as construction workers reportedly left it and found it the morning they discovered Lawrence's body.

"I'm not sure what happened, but it's hard for me to believe what the police say - that she died because of the cold," said the neighbor who identified Lawrence's body; she asked that her name not be used. "It's obvious that people who have more money are going to get more attention than people who are average."

The police's treatment of the Lawrence case, some say, is starkly different from how the Ramsey case has been handled so far.

While Boulder police initially dispatched 15 officers to the scene of Lawrence's death, that number declined within days.

In the Ramsey case, 30 officers from Boulder police and other local law enforcement agencies have worked virtually around the clock - even sending investigators to Georgia and Michigan - since JonBenet's death the day after Christmas. The investigatio n continues.

Police spent almost 10 days carefully scouring the Ramsey house for evidence. They finished examining the Lawrence crime scene in about two days.

And while the coroner completed and released the autopsy report on Lawrence about two weeks after her body was found, more than two weeks have passed since JonBenet's body was found, and no such report has been released. The report is not expected for "a minimum of a week," according to the coroner's office.

Police also released a detailed report about two weeks after Lawrence's death, even though they said it was still being investigated. In the Ramsey case, virtually all public records have been sealed: 911 recordings, search warrant affidavits and list s of what was seized from the family home.

When Lawrence died, police immediately questioned everyone involved, including her mother, sister and stepfather. JonBenet's parents, John and Patsy Ramsey, flew to Georgia for their daughter's funeral. A week after her death, they were given a writt en list of questions; they have yet to be thoroughly interviewed in person. Police said they didn't question the Ramseys in order to give them time to grieve.

"If Lorraine's mom wanted to grieve and wanted time or wanted to leave the state, there's no way in hell they would've let her go," Johnson said.

When asked about the different handling of the two cases at Thursday's public forum, Koby said it was only perceived to be different because of media hype.

"Why has the media given so much attention to this case and literally no attention to the case you described?" Koby responded when questioned about the Lawrence case.

"The notion that we have treated them differently - any legal expert will tell you we have handled this case exactly as it should be handled ... If you go back and assess the homicides that Boulder has had, because they are infrequent events, you will find a similar response."


Wednesday, February 12, 1997
Section: MAIN
Edition: FIRST
Page: 2A
By ELLIOT ZARET Camera Staff Writer

Boulder police investigators still haven't closed the book on the death of Lorraine Florence Lawrence - found dead at a construction site Dec. 4 - even though the Boulder County coroner concluded the death was accidental nearly two months ago.

"They do their own investigation and we do our own investigation," said police Detective Ron Gosage. "Some of it's the same and some of it's different."

The coroner determined that 37-year-old Lawrence - found partially clothed with bruises on her head and side in a hole near the public-housing apartment complex where she lived - died of exposure to the cold after wandering disoriented following a seizure. Temperatures hovered near freezing that night.

"This all fits together pretty well and pretty logically," said Boulder County Coroner Dr. John Meyer. "Our burden of proof is preponderance of the evidence - what's more likely than not. It's not beyond reasonable doubt, because we can't prove a negative."

The case has been the subject of public controversy after some neighbors criticized police handling of the case, compared to the intense investigation into the murder of JonBenet Ramsey.

But Meyer said that controversy may have been fueled by some media inaccuracies. For instance, Meyer disputed reports that the construction hole where Lawrence's body was found had been re-covered with plywood boards that covered the hole the day before.

Lawrence's body was found leaning against a broken board in the hole, her leg scraped and bruised, said Meyer. The board was half-inch particle board - not plywood - something chief medical investigator Tom Faure described as "relatively lightweight." A person stepping on it, he said, could easily have fallen through.

The coroner initially investigated the case as a homicide, but an autopsy report showed the bruises and cuts on her face did not cause her death. There also were no other signs that her death was caused by some sort of beating or injury.

"She had injuries on her that someone looking at her would say she was beaten," said Meyer. "We're looking at the totality of the information that we have, and we don't think she was beaten. ... If we had found in the autopsy skull fractures or a ruptured spleen, that's a homicide - no question about it."

The coroner also researched Lawrence's medical history. It was that history that convinced him Lawrence died accidentally.

From the woman's medical records Meyer learned that Lawrence, who suffered from epileptic seizures, had been found wandering around semi-clothed, bruised, bloody and confused on several instances, including the night before her death. Meyer said such a period of confusion is common immediately following a seizure - called a "post-ictal state."

In another instance in October, Lawrence was brought to the emergency room by a stranger who found her outside her apartment half naked, incoherent and covered with blood.

Such instances were most common when Lawrence was not taking her prescribed seizure medication, Dilantin, Meyer said. The autopsy found levels of the drug in her bloodstream, but they were below "therapeutic levels" - in other words, she had been off her medication. Cocaine also was found in her system, officials said.

Meyer and Faure sat down with members of the family and told them how they believed Lawrence had died - that she wandered around in a disoriented state after a seizure and fell into the hole, where she died of exposure. The bruises and blood on her, they said, were self-induced.

They then sat down with police investigators, who did not object to the ruling.

But police are waiting for evidence from CBI labs before they decide whether to close the case. Those results are expected soon, said Gosage, who added that the long wait is simply due to the CBI's caseload.

Gosage agrees that Lawrence was not beaten, nor "struck with anything that we can tell." As for a broken beer bottle found near some blood on the parking lot, "I think the broken beer bottle was a coincidence," Gosage said, adding that only the bottom of the bottle was found in the parking lot.

"We're strongly leaning toward the coroner's conclusion," said Gosage. "I won't be able to say 100 percent until we get (CBI evidence) back."


Quote:[Image: JamesonsWebbsleuthsName3.jpg]2001-01-16: Webbsleuths Forum (http://www.webbsleuths.com)
"The "Other" Housekeeper"

24 . "AND the other housekeeper,"
Posted by Maikai on Jan-17-01 at 11:49 PM (EST)

Geraldine Vodicka...who just so happened to have an adult daughter meet an untimely death a few weeks before JBR's murder. She may have been the one that worked for the Ramseys before Linda Wilcox. She had some type of disability, and may have been a problem in picking up toys.

25 . "Maikai"
Posted by LovelyPigeon on Jan-18-01 at 10:07 AM (EST)

Please nudge my memory on how we know Vodicka was a former Ramsey housekeeper as I can't locate the source this early in my memory's morning LOL. Here's the one article I could find: A tale of two victims: questions surround handling of two deaths

Camera Staff Writer
Friday, January 10, 1997

26 . "LP.....it was written"
Posted by Maikai on Jan-18-01 at 10:41 AM (EST)

in a Daily Camera article a couple years or so after the daughter was buried. The Camera had solicited for donations for the tombstone, because the family couldn't afford it. The Camera did a followup article, at the cemetery, and they interviewed Mrs. Vodicka and her daughter. It was in that article there was a reference that Mrs. Vodicka had been a former housekeeper for the Ramseys but had to quit because of some type of health problem. It was only a few lines buried within the article. I didn't save the article, but I remember it.

29 . "Lilac....I thought"
Posted by Maikai on Jan-19-01 at 00:33 AM (EST)

the same thing about rich vs poor. Afterall, that is what Boulder had become. The article where the police ruled the death an accident came out on 12/20/96--the day before the Access article. Previous articles in the Camera had talked about friends and family and how some didn't think it was an accident. Who knows what triggers there were? The Vodicka family was devastated...the Ramseys were enjoying success. Mrs. Vodicka's daughter would have been the first homicide that year, if she had been murdered. Some didn't think the police investigated the death properly, and just closed the case.

It came out later that there the family was ok with the ruling...there had been some history there of the daughter walking around outside after an epileptic attack. It is curious that she appeared to have been beaten around the head--that didn't cause her death--but even if she had fallen because of the attack--would she have sustained those kind of injuries? Like Eller said---they may not ever know what happened beforehand. Just reports of arguing...a car squealing away.

Quote:[Image: JamesonsWebbsleuthsName3.jpg]2001-12-31: Webbsleuths Forum (http://www.webbsleuths.com)
"Vodicka & Lawrence"

"Vodicka & Lawrence"
Posted by jameson on Dec-31-01 at 10:01 AM (EST)

Geraldine Vodicka was a housekeeper for the Ramseys.

He daughter, Lorraine Lawrence, was found dead in a construction ditch not long before JBR's murder. That was termed an accident - though it seemed to some it was more likely murder (her body was in a ditch that was covered with plywood.)

Now, it seems that both mother and daughter in that case have criminal records - - and as people are known by the company they keep, I wonder if the BPD checked out that area at all. Vodicka would have been able to tell people about the house, the family. And with the Ramseys in the news, with JBR in the parade and Mall programs, someone might have decided to act on a fantasy.. or two.

I am just trying to point out that there were people who LOGICALLY should have been investigated.

Maybe they were, but if so, no one has leaked that at all.

And I know the BORG is going to scream that I am throwing someone else under the bus - - that is not so.

I am trying to figure out who did this terrible crime - and I don't think it was a total stranger just walking down the street that night. I think JBR was a target - and the killer wasn't so close that he was concerned about leaving a 3 page handwriting sample... so a friend of a friend of the family works.

Santa had a kid with a criminal record - I think that needed to be checked.

LHP's family was of some concern.

And Vodicka... did Lorraine and her mother tell someone about the Ramseys and was Lorraine's death (accident or not) a convenient "go-ahead" for the killer?

4 . "Again, in a tabloid:"
Posted by LovelyPigeon on Dec-31-01 at 11:29 AM (EST)

from the Denver Post Februay 1997: Two sources are named in the story, former Ramsey housekeeper Geraldine Vodicka and the family's media adviser Pat Korten.

The housekeeper says Mrs. Ramsey was paranoid that her husband "would be tempted by any pretty young girls he came in contact with." Therefore, women hired for the household staff had to be "heavier, older and less attractive" than Mrs. Ramsey, the housekeeper said.

Korten says the Ramseys would be happy to talk with the cops, but not at police headquarters.

10 . "The second article about "
Posted by Maikai on Dec-31-01 at 05:29 PM (EST)

John Ramsey's success appeared just one day later---one family (Vodicka's) was in mourning,....the other (Ramseys)had every reason to celebrate, with a great future ahead of them. IMO, it's logical to look at what possible link there could have been between the two families. We know Mrs. Vodicka worked as a housekeeper for the Ramseys at one time. We don't know if there was someone connected to the Vodicka's in some way that might have wanted to help her out--may have been distraught and angry about the death of Lorraine--maybe even angry at the police--might have thought a kidnapping would raise some easy money. Lorraine left behind a 9 year old son that I believe Mrs. Vodicka was going to raise. A subsequent article which I didn't save, but I believe came out in l997, had an interview with Mrs. Vodicka, and another daughter. The Boulder Camera had asked for donations for a tombstone, because the family couldn't afford one, and they were successful in raising the money.

The article talked about the tough times Mrs. Vodicka had encountered in her life. In that article it mentioned Mrs. Vodicka had been a former housekeeper of the Ramseys. Lorraine would have been the first murder of 1996, if the coroner had found evidence of a homicide. As it turned out, JonBenet Ramsey was the first murder....and there was a link between the two families. Who knows who may have been in Mrs. Vodicka's inner or outer circle--someone that may have mentioned something to someone, unwittingly?

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  JayD and LFlowers - JT Colfax
Posted by: jameson245 - 03-19-2017, 08:25 AM - Forum: Names to remember - Replies (2)

Vennie Scott Thompson
Poster named "Obsessor" turned suspect over to Ramsey Investigators
Then posted about it on the Boulder News Forum

Quote:NOTE FROM CANDYROSE: On November 13, 1998, the "Obsessor" screen name logon on the Boulder News Forum was actually being "shared" by two people when the thread titled, "Breakthrough" was first created to announce the suspicions regarding Vennie Scott Thompson.

Apparently both "L Flowers" (LF) and "JayD" (Obsessor) were together in Boulder, Colorado using the same computer that day and although both of them had the suspicions, it was actually "L.Flowers" who was actually making the postings on the forum but was using the "Obsessor" screen name. But there was some confussion because at times it appeared that it was L.Flowers posting and other times it was JayD posting.

L.Flowers said she didn't have an account setup herself on the forum at that time and that is why she was using the "Obsessor" screen name. Once she set up her own account then her own logon was "lflowers" and once she began posting under her own logon then "JayD" began using his own logon again. So some of the more radical postings between JayD (Using the Obsessor logon) and Lance Matthews were in fact JayD and Matthews and not L.Flowers.


01. Vennie Scott Thompson said, "I was in jail from 12/11/96 until 1/19/98.
02. Thompson: "That puts me out of the picture for the JonBenet Ramsey killing
03. Thompson: "That puts me out of the picture for the Susannah Chase killing"


Quote:[Image: BoulderNewsForumBanner.jpg]1998-11-13: Boulder News Forum thread, "Breakthrough"

obsessor - 06:26pm Nov 13, 1998 MST

(copy of letter sent 11/13/98 to ramsey case investigators)

To whom it may concern (Boulder police detectives, Jennifer Geddes, FBI, etc., Ramsey family)
It is our belief that you presently have the killer of JonBenet Ramsey incarcerated in Boulder City Jail.

One of the sex offenders who is incarcerated on a "Peeping Tom" offense now is named in the today's Colorado Daily newspaper article as Vennie Scott Thompson. My friend and I believe very strongly that because of this man's discussion of the extortion kidnapping plot in fall or early winter 1996 (before the Ramsey killing), he may be the murderer of JonBenet.

Previously I discussed with Lou Smit and investigators working with the Ramsey family the possibility that a "Finnie" Thompson (first name was uncertain but sounded like "Finnie") was the killer of JonBenet. The reason for this suspicion is as follows:

My contact stated that in late 1996 he was visiting with "Finnie" Thompson, who was planning to kidnap a small child for ransom money (extortion attempt). "Finnie" Thompson was seeking an accomplice to do the kidnapping. He worked at Burger King in Boulder and told my contact repeatedly how intensely he hated the little children who came into the restaurant. "Finnie" also had been jailed in Boulder for "Peeping Tom" offenses and for that reason he was hated by the women who had encountered him at Penny Lane Coffeehouse in Boulder. He told my contact that he was all set to come into a very large amount of money very soon. My contact stated that "Finnie" had the attitude of someone who was trying to solve all of his problems at once by doing a crime. However, at the time my contact did not take "Finnie" seriously and thought it was just insane raving.

In August 1997 I first learned about "Finnie"s ransom plot and immediately informed Lou Smit and the Ramsey family detectives.

About a week ago I wrote to you and said that I believed that James Michael Thompson (a.k.a. J.T. Colfax) had been confused with "Finnie Thompson and that there may be two different people with similar names. This was confirmed today when my friend noticed a newspaper article in the Colorado Daily about sex offenders in Boulder.

One of the sex offenders who is incarcerated on a "Peeping Tom" offense now is named in the newspaper article as Vennie Scott Thompson. My friend and I believe very strongly that because of this man's discussion of the extortion kidnapping plot in fall or early winter 1996 (before the Ramsey killing), he may be the murderer of JonBenet.

My original contact refuses to come forward with this information about "Finnie" or Vennie Thompson. However we believe that our source is a very honest person and did not make this story up.

The employment records at Burger King where "Finnie" or Vennie Thompson worked are no longer available because they were removed from the Burger King offices soon after the JonBenet murder.

Please let me know if you have received this email and tell me what action is taken in response to it.

Thank you very much.
(end of quoted letter)

obsessor - 06:52pm Nov 13, 1998 MST (#4 of 21)

nothing has yet been done with this info as far as i know. i have pressured Boulder police and Ramsey family investigators repeatedly on this, but previously did not know the precise name of Vennie Scott Thompson, only knew an appoximate pronunciation such as "Finnie". I told them he worked at Burger King in Boulder, therefore he should have been traceable by that clue. However to my knowledge no one ever followed up on this lead thoroughly. There was certainly some name confusion with J.T. Colfax (James Michael Thompson) the corpse artist, but that confusion is now cleared up.

v2000 - 07:18pm Nov 13, 1998 MST (#8 of 21)

Would you care to clue us in on who your contact is, how your contact got the information, who wrote the letter, what the author's (and your) relationship to the case is, and how the author met Lou Smit?

obsessor - 07:27pm Nov 13, 1998 MST (#9 of 21)

"Would you care to clue us in on who your contact is" [my contact refuses to come forward],"how your contact got the information" [in an informal social situation at my contact's home],"who wrote the letter" [me], "what the author's (and your) relationship to the case is" [my relationship to the case occurred because my contact approached me in August 1997 and revealed this apparent lead to me voluntarily. my contact and his friend both knew that i was interested in this case out of concern for the family and the community, etc.], "and how the author met Lou Smit?"

obsessor - 07:34pm Nov 13, 1998 MST (#12 of 21)

the letter i refer to is the letter posted above on this discussion board (!) My contact spoke with a man he called "Finnie" Thompson at his home in late 1996. The man "Finnie" is the same person (we believe) as Vennie Scott Thompson. If this can be verified then we know that Vennie was planning a kidnapping in late 1996 because he was seeking co-conspirators. My contact just considered Vennie to be talking nonsense. My contact's friend knew Vennie had been previously found in a "Peeping Tom" offense in Boulder. The two talked and came to the conclusion that Vennie might be linked to the Ramsey murder because he was going around at night as a Peeping Tom and actually may have been planning (said he was planning) a ransom/extortion/kidnapping of a small child, and often raved about how much he detested children.Of course,we do not know whether Vennie Thompson is the killer or not; but at any rate it is a lead,and it is a lead that,in good conscience,needs to be investigated.

obsessor - 07:37pm Nov 13, 1998 MST (#15 of 21)

fact is, the Burger King manager in Boulder told my friend that the personnel files for this man were mysteriously missing from the office paper files. Perhaps something is in the Burger King Computer somewhere detailing this fellow's work in Boulder Burger King?

obsessor - 07:51pm Nov 13, 1998 MST (#21 of 29)

you can use exxon222@hotmail.com

already wrote to jtcolfax on his website and told him about this seeming identity confusion problem. i had been thinking colfax still was a suspect, but now think that this was partly a case of confused identity because of same last name Thompson. JT Colfax still seems odd but possibly just good at implicating himself.

obsessor - 07:59pm Nov 13, 1998 MST (#24 of 29)

According to newspaper report in Colorado Daily today, Vennie Scott Thompson wrote a note to the woman he was convicted of Peep-Tomming on. The note may provide a handwriting sample, or police may be able to get other handwriting samples from Vennie's past to see if they implicate him in (or exonerate him from) the Ramsey murder.

obsessor - 08:12pm Nov 13, 1998 MST (#37 of 44)

I am writing under my friend's handle ("Obsessor") because I do not yet have an identity/password of my own.I can assure Ruthee that she is NOT conversing with a police officer,nor is this a lesser kind of "publicity stunt" What we are trying to do is bring a child killer to justice.We are not here for purposes of idle entertainment.Also..."Beanie" appears to me to be a raving idiot.If you insist on being macabre,at least do it with the kind of witticism and ingenuity that Colfax has done it with. L Flowers

obsessor - 08:13pm Nov 13, 1998 MST (#38 of 44)

there are 2 people using the obsessor handle right now, due to time lag in signup. my friend here knew Vennie as Finnie, but only was slightly acquainted. We searced for "Finnie" for some time, but his real name according to Colorado Daily is Vennie. We all know typos happen. The name was previously known only in casual conversation not in perfect written English.

obsessor - 08:56pm Nov 13, 1998 MST (#83 of 83)

don't like the use of unnamed sources but the guy gave me the info on the condition that he not be named to the authorities. that's where it stands now. no emails have appeared from police ravenously hungry for clues. same as in 97 when i first informed ramseyfamily and Lou Smit about this. It was basically ignored. They are dealing with lots of leads and this was just one more. Since no one who talked with thomp would come forward they did not even go get a burger at burger king apparentment.

obsessor - 09:01pm Nov 13, 1998 MST (#88 of 94)

[i]"Lazarus: I cannot give her name out in good conscience.If you happen to know Lance yourself,ask him.It is not my intention to disclose any information about Lance or my friend that is not already known to the public."

In answer to your question: I remember Vennie Thompson as tall,w greyish black hair and a deceptively benevolent demeanor.He usually wore a baseball cap and could be found at Penny Lane coffeehouse in the early mornings ( 6 a.m. ish)where I would often encounter him in the late winter and early spring of 1996.At that time I worked the graveyard shift,and would usually drop by to have coffee before going home.That's about all the information on V.T. I personally can give you; the rest,of course,is speculative. LF


obsessor - 09:15pm Nov 13, 1998 MST (#99 of 99)

I contacted the Ramsey investigators. Jennifer Geddes, I believe her name is, turned out to be a very overworked law student. She didn't have time to come to Boulder to talk with me, and it was hard for her to find time in her schedule if I was to go to Denver. She did not investigate the Burger King angle as far as I know; nor did Lou Smit as far as I know.

Quote:[Image: BoulderNewsForumBanner.jpg]1998-11-14: Boulder News Forum thread, "Obsessors" friend and affiliate"

auntiebj - 01:57pm Nov 15, 1998 MST (#20 of 24)
If you wanna dance, you have to pay the fiddler.

Lflowers, it is nice to see you now under your own idenity. Sorry about all the flack you got the other night. There are some posters who enjoy using multiple hats and creating havic out on the boards and that is who most people thought you were. But I am confussed about something. Was it you or the "other" obsessor Hat identity that has the "source" that will not come forward about this "Vinnie" guy? I know you are asking about it here so I am thinking it was you. If it is you then did the other obsessor person know about this too?

lflowers - 02:35pm Nov 15, 1998 MST (#21 of 24)

to auntie bj: Just returned to the computer lab and got your message...in answer to your inquiry, It was the other "obsessor" who was told by contact X about Vennie Thompson's possible involvement in the murder.At the time contact X came forward with this information,I was living in Asheville,N.C.,and was informed of the new developements via telephone.

I did not write the posted letter adressed to Ramsey family investigators,although I did agree,for the sake of a thorough investigation,that posting it was a good idea.

lflowers - 02:50pm Nov 15, 1998 MST (#22 of 24)

In case anyone's interested,the following excerpt is taken from the Nov 13-15 weekend edition of the "Colorado Daily":

Title of article: "Sex assault examined"

".....A jury found Vennie Scott Thompson,40,guilty of the charges against him August 19.Thompson was charged with attempted third degree sex assault and first degree criminal trespass.Thompson had been watching his victim through her window.When the woman would move to call the police,she said,Thompson would run away,then stop and kneel as if in prayer.He once got on the balcony of her Boulder home to leave her a note.According to police reports,part of the note read,'He waits at least a week between blessings,lest she become annoyed with his prayers and destroys him as is her right'"

lflowers - 12:42pm Nov 16, 1998 MST (#31 of 31)

hi,auntie bj...in answer to your question.....I have known "Obsessor" since early 1995,when I met him through mutual friends in the Boulder "poetry" scene (if it can be called that in respect to good literature,which it cant).Contact X,who,again,had often encountered V Thompson at Penny Lane coffeehouse in Boulder,states that the aforementioned was brought over to his residence by a mutual aquaintance (name not disclosed),and that,while "visiting", Thompson exhibited bizarre,inexplicable,and restless behavior;and that he talked repeatedly about coming into a large amount of money in the near future and about kidnapping a Boulder child for ransom.Then,allegedly,(as has been stated) he attempted to enlist contact X's help as an accomplice.

Of course, I have no hard proof of this;but I do happen to be aquainted with contact X myself,and I can say with conviction that,knowing the content of his character,I do not believe he would make this up.Contact X is a quiet,gracious,considerate man who is not given to verbal embellishments or theatrics of any kind.He is known around Penny Lane coffeehouse and among friends and associates as a gentle,good hearted,and compassionate induvidual.He would have absolutely no motive in concocting this story.

obsessor - 05:09pm Nov 16, 1998 MST (#34 of 35) Contact X is a good listener. He listened to the ravings of the guest, and then forgot about it all for several months, until Aug. '97 when another friend discussed the guest and the topic came up. Putting the kidnapping plot together with rumors about Peeping Tom arrest, they put their heads together and realized they should relay all this info to authorities. They knew I was obsessed with solving the case and told me all the details when I chanced upon them at Penny Lane. I contacted authorities and Ramsey family investigator Jennifer Geddes, an overworked law student in Denver. No one followed up on this lead completely as far as I know. In addition, I believe that there was genuine confusion between the two Thompsons prior to a few days ago when VT's name appeared in the paper and was noticed almost by chance by the very observant LF.

Quote:[Image: BoulderNewsForumBanner.jpg]1998-11-24: Boulder News Forum thread, "Just ask Vennie Scott Thompson...I did!"

Just ask Vennie Scott Thompson...I did!
matthews - 06:21pm Nov 24, 1998 MST

I was wondering what Vennie had to say about all these accusations....so I asked him. This came in the mail today

He answered a lot of questions and it was a really interesting letter. It told me for sure things that make me look at him in a new light when wondering whether or not to consider him a suspect....I will post when I can...am busy scanning someone else's letter right now.

Incidentally, LOU SMIT has contacted, "Obsessor" twice. The first e-mail, a brief message thanking Obsessor for posting the Vennie Thompson info on the web, was seen by L Flowers with her own eyes. The second, which Obsessor described to LF in detail, involved Smit contacting him a SECOND time and asking for permission to forward Obsessor's messages about Vennie Thompson to the BPD. (I thought Smit was court ordered to stay out of this thing?....O.J. had a loose glove; the Ramsey's have a LOUSMIT!)

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  Starting with advice from J&P
Posted by: jameson245 - 03-19-2017, 08:15 AM - Forum: How to solve this mystery - No Replies

VAN SUSTEREN: What would you tell them to do?
P. RAMSEY: I would say: This is the room where all of the evidence is stored. You start from the beginning, start combing, and go.
J. RAMSEY: Go back to the neighborhood, talk to the neighbors, that's never been done by the police. Start from the beginning, start from scratch, sit down with the parents, sit down with anybody that will talk to you within a hundred-yard radius of the house.
VAN SUSTEREN: Didn't they talk to the neighbor, though, who heard a scream at some point?
P. RAMSEY: We don't know, Greta, because no one has ever -- We hear rumors all the time. No one in authority has ever talked with us and told us what they know.
J. RAMSEY: What we know is what we have read or heard on television. We have not heard anything official from the police. So was there a woman that heard a scream? I believe so because I've heard that reported.
VAN SUSTEREN: But you don't know for certain?
J. RAMSEY: I don't know for certain.

(Note, that still has not changed.  The BPD still has not told the Ramseys everything they really KNOW about this case.  Meetings were  held, like the one in Atlanta, and promises were made - - they didn't have that with them but would send on to Lin - and never kept)

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  Running man - not supported by the evidence
Posted by: jameson245 - 03-19-2017, 08:07 AM - Forum: Names to remember - No Replies

FROM: Jay D.
EMAIL: jcfdillon@hotmail.com
DATE: Sunday January 26, 1997

Please go to the general bulletin board for this BoulderNews website and look at La Cosa Nostra connections thread.

The 911 call during the Xmas party may have been a test by someone at the party or in a van/car outside the home, testing to see the exact response time needed by police for a 911 call. This person would be someone who would know very well that the police would respond to any 911 even if an incompleted call. They then timed the exact response time. Purpose: The killer knew that if and when Ramseys phoned 911 for police, then he would have a certain amount of time to torture/kill the child and leave the house. If killer knew exact time, he could then figure out the exact method of torturing/killing with just enough time to do this in the basement room and get away with the horrible crime with just enough time.

According to eyewitness a Running Man was seen leaving scene of crime. Tall and slender. It appears that perhaps the man may have run out of time. Knew exactly the number of seconds remaining before the police car would arrive, and had to resort to running even though this would attract attention. Carried out all details of the threatened killing method, but perhaps went even further overboard into the sexual crimes, knowing he had just enough time to add this further humiliation to the victim and family.

Sounds like a revenge killing. Killer may have known John Ramsey well enough from Access Graphics to understand that the sexual violation would be severely agonizing as a form of humiliation of the child and family. Also may have known John Ramsey well enough to know that John Ramsey would IMMEDIATELY call police in violation of attempted kidnapper's demands. The kidnapper made the threatened sanctions so horrible specifically in the hopes that John Ramsey would comply with the ransom. He hoped also that the modest ransom demand would also keep John Ramsey from calling police. But when, as feared, these aspects did not prevent the 911 call, the extortionist was "forced" by his personal code of "ethics" to carry out the promised threat in the ransom note, and to do so exactly as stated in that note so that John Ramsey would feel the full weight of the retaliation that had been taken out on his daughter. There was a getaway car/van or whatever, and this van would leave the scene of the crime at a specified time. These kidnappers were highly disciplined and if the actual assailant in the house did not return to the van or car as planned, then the assailant would have been left behind. Thus, the whole thing was timed down to the last second. The man had to run away from the house to make it to the car in just the right amount of time to be whisked away and prevent being intercepted by police.

(just a theory)
Jay D.

FROM: Texas 3
DATE: Sunday January 26, 1997

I am still lost having missed a "Day in the Threads" Where did the Running Man information come from?

FROM: Longhorn
EMAIL: 4:15cst
DATE: Sunday January 26, 1997

JayD.: please don't misread me, I mean no attack, just want to know where that bb is and until we can find another source(no offense intended) it's hard to accept a "running man" and a "witness" that suddenly shows up in the conversation. Agreed, options should remain open and each is entitled to pursue what they want. Just didn't want something reported as fact if it can't be confirmed. A theory is a different thing, no slam intended

FROM: Jay D.
EMAIL: jcfdillon@hotmail.com
DATE: Sunday January 26, 1997

Roommate's co-worker said he heard a woman on a talk radio show. Woman stated she saw man running from crime scene on Dec. 26. Tall and slender. Woman stated she informed police of seeing this man running from scene of crime. Woman stated that police did not interview her at all about her eyewitness report. That's all I know so far about "Running Man." Will try to get more specific info as soon as possible.

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