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  Kim Ballard
Posted by: jameson245 - 03-04-2017, 05:37 PM - Forum: Names to remember - Replies (3)

Geraldo Rivera - Monday, May 12, 1997

4 . "May 12th transcript"
Posted by jams on Nov-07-00 at 00:16 AM (EST)

Partial transcript - - show covered other topics...

RIVERA: Oh, shush--with Kim Ballard, the purported mistress of John Ramsey. I--I found out about her awhile ago, didn't go with it because she wouldn't take a polygraph for me, but I trust Carol's reporting and Carol has talked to her. Before I talk to Carol, do you have these clips ready? OK, you have har--oh, she talked to "Hard Copy." OK. Roll "Hard Copy."

(Excerpt from "Hard Copy")

Ms. KIM BALLARD (Alleged Mistress of John Ramsey): He had said Southern belle, blonde, petite. He was someone to fill a void in a period of my life when I was alone, and I think I was doing the same for him, filling some sort of need.

Staying in nice hotels. We had--went to nice restaurants. He bought me nice clothes.

Unidentified Reporter: Cash, too?

Ms. BALLARD: Gave me cash, yes.

Reporter: Hundreds? Thousands?

Ms. BALLARD: Maybe $ 1,000.

(End of excerpt)

RIVERA: We could have called tonight's program A Tale of Two Ads. In the initial part of that interview, she was talking about how she met John Ramsey. Apparently, Carol, they first met through a personals advertisement?

Ms. McKINLEY: Yeah. According to Kim Ballard, they met through an advertisement she put in the USA Today in the personal ads. And, you know, you have to wonder after four and a half months since the child was killed, why does she come forward? I mean, that's the journalistic perspective of all this. What is up with this? It seems to always happen in these kinds of stories; someone always comes out and then they say they had an affair and knew someone before and...

RIVERA: Do you believe her?

Ms. McKINLEY: So--you know what? I--if I said one way or another, it would--it would give too much away and I--I--you know, I'll let you guys decide that for yourselves. But basically she just came out and said the reason she waited this long to come forward--and supposedly this affair she had with John Ramsey was back in November '94 to April '95, which is when Patsy Ramsey apparently had her ovarian cancer troubles.

RIVERA: Cancer--right. Right.

Ms. McKINLEY: But she says the reason she waited so long is because she would have kept silent, but the Globe actually used her name and she wanted to tell her story and she said the Globe had printed a bunch of lies about her, and so she wants to come forward and she says she hasn't taken any money.

RIVERA: This is--this is interesting. Part C--Tape C from Carol's interview.

Tell me when you have that keyed up because that, to me, is--OK. Let's roll--let me set it up. This is the only--as far as I can see from all the interviews, this is what brings it back to the--to the case, to the investigation. Roll Tape C.

(Excerpt from interview)

Ms. BALLARD: I met him in 1994, and if it hadn't of been, you know, for the Globe printing my name, I would've stayed a secret, like I always had been. But since it was printed, and also, their investigators--their own investigators, Ellis Armistead and Associates have been calling me daily, at least once a day.

The only thing I can think of is that maybe their own investigators are putting together a profile, the way the FBI will do, of a killer, because they just called and fir--at first they wanted to know everything about the relationship. And then it was just calls every day: Who are you talking to? Are you going to talk with anyone? Has the police contacted you? Are you going to talk with them?--just keeping up with me every day.

(End of excerpt)

RIVERA: Even mistresses tell the truth, Carol.

Ms. McKINLEY: Well, you know, this has nothing to do with the murder and that's what you have to remember. The only thing it has...

RIVERA: Well, how about the fact that her--that...

Ms. McKINLEY: ...to do with is, if--if this, indeed, happened, the character of John Ramsey.

RIVERA: It has to do with character, but if...

Mr. diGENOVA: Excuse me.

RIVERA: ...his lawyers or investigators are calling...

Ms. McKINLEY: Yeah, and if they're calling trying to find out who she's--when she's going to talk.

Here's another interesting segment that came in the interview later.

RIVERA: All right. Joe--Joe, put down the cigar for a minute. Let's listen to Carol. Go ahead.

Mr. diGENOVA: I'm--I'm listening.

RIVERA: All right. Go ahead, Carol.

Ms. McKINLEY: Well, one of the things she said...

RIVERA: He wields that like a lethal weapon. OK.

Ms. McKINLEY: ...(unintelligible) she was--she was going to come out at the beginning of May and go on the show in Philadelphia. And what she said was the day before she was to take her flight, she got a call, and the person on the other line, which was a man, told her if she talked about John Ramsey, the same thing that happened to JonBenet would happen to her.


Ms. McKINLEY: And then this person hung up. So she's pretty nervous and--and she's scared now and whether this is true or not, it's all just one more strange...

RIVERA: It is.

Ms. McKINLEY: ...twist, as Bill Ritter said a little while ago in this--in this bizarre story.

RIVERA: OK. Before--before Joe and Larry tear it apart, let me merely suggest to you folks that--remembering the Simpson saga--remember how morbidly fascinated we were with all of these tangential, even extra legal characters that came to play a part in that--in that drama? So we'll comment on that. Stay tuned; be right back.


RIVERA: The big news in the JonBenet case, the fact that the Boulder DA sanctioned the family's ad in the local newspaper over the weekend; an adult male approaching your young children'--if you have any information, please call the Crime Stopper number. That's the big news. The kind of subtext here, an alleged mistress of John Bennett Ramsey's surfacing, talking about how he was a controlling personality.

I guess you asked her whether she thought they were involved in the case, did you not, Carol?

Ms. McKINLEY: Yeah, we asked her if--if, in her gut, if she thought they might be involved, and she said that she didn't know but that she believed that--that they could be. She had a gut feeling that they were.

RIVERA: She didn't talk about anything about him--Larry is rolling his eyes.

Ms. McKINLEY: She said she had a--she said she felt he had a temper, but there was one thing--there was kind of an antenna that went up because she said she felt he had a temper because when they were out to dinner she ordered decaf and he sighed.

POZNER: Ah, there it is.

Ms. McKINLEY: To me, that doesn't mean he has a temper. It just might mean that he wants her to stay up.

POZNER: ...(Unintelligible).

Ms. McKINLEY: I don't know what, but--you know, to commit to a relationship.

RIVERA: I side with they didn't have time to ...(unintelligible).

POZNER: Wait. Wait. Wait. Where's our FBI profiler to tell us...

RIVERA: OK. Joe...

POZNER: ...the, you know...

RIVERA: ...Joe first, then Larry. I've got to--I'm going to sandwich (unintelligible) due process.

Mr. diGENOVA: All right. Let me just--let me just say this. If one were looking at this story--and let's just assume for the sake of argument that this woman is telling the truth.

RIVERA: Mm-hmm.

Mr. diGENOVA: Let's assume that--that--that John Ramsey, while his wife is undergoing treatment for cancer...

RIVERA: Right.

Mr. diGENOVA: ...decides to go to a personal column to find someone to have a liaison with.

RIVERA: Right.

Mr. diGENOVA: It's weird. It's...

RIVERA: It is weird.

Mr. diGENOVA: ...almost as weird as having your child dress up like an adult when she's very, very small and pretending that that is insignificant.

RIVERA: So there, Larry Pozner.

POZNER: Oh, please.

RIVERA: So there.

POZNER: Prosecution should be based on sterner stuff than this.

RIVERA: It's not about the prosecution.

POZNER: Come on. Come on.

RIVERA: It's about the investigation.

POZNER: What investigation?

RIVERA: The character, the personality...

POZNER: What? The--tell me where...

RIVERA: ...the personal habits.

POZNER: ...this supposed mistress leads to. I--now we're going to hear somebody say that men who have affairs are more likely to be homicidal? Come on. Where...

RIVERA: How does this jive...

POZNER: Where's the evidence?

RIVERA: How does this jive with John Bennett Ramsey, supporting father and husband, who sat alongside Patsy and tearfully told the nation that they didn't do it and they were going to get the bastard who did, etc., etc.?

POZNER: If it's true, if he had the affair, I suspect he's...

RIVERA: When his wife was under treatment of cancer.

POZNER: ...I suspect he's not the first male to have an affair...

RIVERA: Oh, well...

POZNER: ...and I don't think it shows anything about whether he is a killer. And--and wait a second. Where'd this notion come from that he's the one dressing up JonBenet? It was his wife who participated...

RIVERA: Well...

POZNER: ...in beauty pageants.

Mr. diGENOVA: Did he stop it?

POZNER: Oh, so he's going to say to his wife...

RIVERA: John was...

POZNER: ...I forbid you to put...

RIVERA: John was present at many of those. Mr. District Attorney.

Mr. diGENOVA: Did he stop it?

RIVERA: Mis--no, he did not. Mr. District Attorney.

Mr. RITTER: You know, again, this is a--a very bizarre sort of sidelight here. It is the sideshow. For a prosecutor, you have to maintain your focus on the details of the investigation that someday may be admissible in trial in a court of law, and you can get a little bit away from that, trying to decide different kinds of character issues. But this is of no help or hindrance to the prosecution. This is just something, that's purely, I think, entertaining.

Print this item

  3/31/1997 Geraldo
Posted by: jameson245 - 03-04-2017, 05:31 PM - Forum: ugh - Judianne Densen-Gerber and Marilyn van Derber Atler - No Replies

Geraldo Rivera Show - Monday, March 31, 1997

This transcript was found on the old Boulder News Forum Archive and was copied "as is" from the forum posting.

* Interview: JonBenet Ramsey: investigating Mom; panelists discuss Patsy Ramsey's possible involvement in the murder of her daughter
7499 Words
44648 Characters
Investigative News Group
Burrelle's Information Services
HOST: Geraldo Rivera

(Excerpt from beauty pageant)

GERALDO RIVERA: That is the haunting voice of the innocent little child who cries out from her grave for justice. But are we any closer to an arrest in the JonBenet Ramsey case? We will talk with several experts whose analysis of the evidence points in a startling direction. Our ongoing investigation of the Ramsey murder poses the question: Did the mother have anything to do with it? Next GERALDO RIVERA SHOW.

(Excerpt from beauty pageant)

RIVERA: It is painful enough to watch the video of JonBenet Ramsey dancing and posing. It is that much harder to listen to this little beauty queen, hear her voice. It seems almost as if she is still around, vibrant and just as adorable as she was when this video was taken.

It has been, ladies and gentlemen, just over three months since her brutal murder. Who did it and what in the world is taking so long to resolve this terrible mystery?

That's the main question we'll be asking over the course of this hour, but our very specific focus is much more narrow. Here's the question: Could it have been her mother? Could Patsy Ramsey have played some terrible role in taking the life of her precious daughter, or at least in covering up the crime?

Today--two exclusives. First, I'd like you to meet an old friend of mine. This is the forensic psychiatrist Dr. Judianne Densen-Gerber, but we have known each other for decades.

Dr. JUDIANNE DENSEN-GERBER (JD, MD, Forensic Psychiatrist): Forty years.

RIVERA: Imagine. She is here today with never-before-seen video of little JonBenet. That video Dr. Densen-Gerber has carefully studied, scrutinized and analyzed. You know how I cherish your opinion and--and hold it in such high regard. My first question is having st--I--I tell you what. Before I get specific, give me a general overview of what you have discerned.

Dr. DENSEN-GERBER: Well, first I'd like to just comment on what you showed because it's the only patriotic beauty contest--child beauty contest singing that. And when I had reviewed about five hours, Geraldo, of the tapes and she sang "God Bless America," and she said, `land of the free,' I said, `The land of the enslaved children.' And my feeling very strong...

RIVERA: And I--land of the enslaved children. Isn't it true?

Dr. DENSEN-GERBER: And my first reaction is, one, we cry out certainly to catch the person who did--was the perpetrator or who covered up the perpetration. But what about all the other children? I brought you this, which I--first time I've ever seen--from Connecticut which advertises another beauty contest.

RIVERA: Mm-hmm.

Dr. DENSEN-GERBER: And I have been talking--I wrote the child pornography and sexploitation laws for Gayle Kil--Kilde all the way back in 1978...

RIVERA: Mm-hmm.

Dr. DENSEN-GERBER: ...which passed. We didn't put in beauty contests. We didn't even know about them.

RIVERA: Do you think that these contests, per se, are abuse?

Dr. DENSEN-GERBER: Well, like this they are. The first one I studied was one Birch Bayh asked me to study, which was in Naked City, Indiana, and a very ticklish question, literally, because Indiana was the first state to have nudist camps. And these had children under 15 posing, and anybody who could pay $15 could take as many pictures of them as they wanted. And it took us a while to close it down, but we did. This is pretty much the same kind of thing.

RIVERA: Is there any indication, in terms of that tape, that this child was previously the victim of child abuse?

Dr. DENSEN-GERBER: Oh, definitely, and I think you've shown some of them on prior shows, in that you can't look at these tapes and not see that she has bruises. She has a very big bruise during one time in her antec--what we call the antecubital fossa, the same place people shoot heroin. There's another time where one of her eyes when she's being crowned is barely able to be opened. And furthermore, there is even the fact that she--when she is crowned in one contest, she's disoriented and she can't find her way off the stage, and this is not the first contest. So I think that very much she was sort of in a trance or in a mesmerized state when she did this because, really, she was j--a puppet. She wasn't a--her person--her own person.

RIVERA: Was she the puppet of her mother?

Dr. DENSEN-GERBER: Well, for the shows definitely. There is no question that I think there was a symbiotic relationship between the mother and child. This mother had been Miss West Virginia. I believe her sister was also Miss West Virginia and they didn't make Miss America. And certain people have told me that when this baby was just born the mother said, `This is my future Miss America.' So she was fulfilling a long-term dream of the mother to make it.

RIVERA: Is there any indication in your analysis, as you scrutinize, as you investigate, that the mother could have played any role in this?

Dr. DENSEN-GERBER: Well, there is no reason--let me put it the other way--there's no reason to suspect the father any more than the mother.

RIVERA: What is there, if anything, in what you have analyzed in this case that would indicate any culpability or involvement by the mother, Patsy Ramsey?

Dr. DENSEN-GERBER: Well, the first thing is definitely the bruises, the eye that didn't open, the disorientation at the beauty contest. To the best of my knowledge, the father never went with her. I mean, it was the mother who went with her. So it couldn't be the father at least being the physical abuser of the child. In addition, the 30...

RIVERA: That's interesting. I'd not--I'd not thought that one through, but y--of course, that's logical.

Dr. DENSEN-GERBER: ..the 30--the 30 visits to the pediatrician, the mother took her to. What did she go to the pediatrician 30 times in two years for? Looking at the autopsy report, with the chronic and old vaginitis or inflammation, I have to assume that that had to be told sometime to the mother. She must have had a discharge. I mean, she was abused for probably two and a half to three years.

RIVERA: What would have been the motive that night?

Dr. DENSEN-GERBER: There are many possible motives. Either that the child--which has also been said--did not want to go to the January 5th Las Vegas or--and I've asked for the curriculum...

RIVERA: That would be--What's that?--about...

Dr. DENSEN-GERBER: Two weeks.

RIVERA: ...two weeks--just under two weeks later, after the homicide.

Dr. DENSEN-GERBER: It's under two weeks. Or it could easily have been that the child, in school--and I've asked for the curriculum from that first grade--could have been studying good and bad touching and she could have easily said, `I'm not going to do this anymore,' or `I'm going to tell someone.'

There's another thing which I learned from your associate that you had one of her friends on, and this friend said that Patsy loved her daughter very, very much, but she was always concerned that she go to the bathroom, urinate before--and I think this was on your show--before they went anywhere. Well, it's strange--it's--when you talk `went anywhere'--it's a little sick joke--before she went to heaven, I have to say. The fascinating thing in the autopsy that confused me from the very beginning is she had an empty bladder. So she had to be k--killed within five minutes after she went to the potty.

RIVERA: Meaning what?

Dr. DENSEN-GERBER: Meaning that someone took her to the potty. It wasn't a death throes, death agony. So some--now to me, it's the strangest thing in the world for a perpetrator to take a child to the potty right before you kill the child. In addition, whoever killed the child, I feel, did not have much strength because the blows to the head did not fracture anything. It was a contrecoup concussion.

But second of all, if a man becomes enraged and it's a small child or a woman, he'll just put his hands around her and crack the cricoid. This person had to take long, thin strings, put ligatures--put it around the neck and even take a piece of wood to twist it tight enough to kill her.

In addition, the child appears to have been dragged naked downstairs because she has a--bruises all over her back and her thighs. So I would say, I assume, since the father picked the child up immediately upon seeing her dead in the basement, he would have picked her up. And if you could pick her up, you'd put her in a car and you'd throw her in the woods, if you'd done this thing. So it appears to me the person was not strong enough to pick the child up or take it. That doesn't mean it has to be the mother, but it does mean that it could be the mother just as easily as the father.

RIVERA: Here is our plan, ladies and gentlemen: Aside from continuing our fascinating discussion with Dr. Judianne Densen-Gerber, we'll be speaking with a former Miss America who was herself abused as a child and get her take on--on this terrible case. We'll talk to a reporter who has the very latest and some exclusive photographs. And we'll talk to a handwriting expert--a renowned forensic handwriting expert who will give us her take on what the--that evidence--the handwriting--physical evidence has so far revealed. Our general title--we're investigating the death of the child. Our specific focus, though, is Investigating Mom. JonBenet Ramsey continues right after this.

Ms. MARILYN VAN DERBER ATLER (Former Miss America Who Was Sexually Abused By Her Father): (From upcoming segment) ...not crying but close to it and she said, `You said something that hurt me very badly today.' And I said, `I'm sorry, Mother. Tell me--tell me what it is and I'll try not to say it again.' And she said, `You said your father pried you open...'


(Excerpts from 02/26/97)

Dr. CYRIL WECHT (Pathologist): Do I believe it was accidental in the sense that it was not an intent, initially, to kill this girl? Yes, very much so. And with regard to the sexual business, too--chronic, acute--the fact of the matter is there is no evidence of a brutal sexual assault on this girl. It was a careful situation so as not to leave any injuries.

Ms. JERALYN MERRITT (Criminal Defense Attorney): The pediatrician of this child m--met this child many, many times over the last couple of years. He says there was no prior sexual abuse, no evidence of it. And he also says that he would have known it if there was. And he saw this child on a regular basis, and I think we have to give some credence to that because, with all due respect to Dr. Wecht, he hasn't spoken to the pediatrician as far as I know and he hasn't met the child.

(End of excerpts)

RIVERA: The debate on location in Boulder, Colorado, between Dr. Cyril Wecht, on the one hand, the noted forensic pathologist, and two of the local criminal defense attorneys, Jeralyn Merritt and Larry Pozner.

Let's go right now to Tony Frost, the editor of the Globe, the controversial tabloid that has, though, broken some exclusive ground in its coverage of this troubling case.

Tony, welcome aboard.

Mr. TONY FROST (Editor, Globe Magazine): Hi, Geraldo.

RIVERA: Tony joins us via satellite from the Globe headquarters in--in Florida. What city in--in Florida are you?

Mr. FROST: Boca Raton.

RIVERA: Boca Raton, OK.

Mr. FROST: That's right.

RIVERA: Before I get to what's new, I was away last week and in looking at your edition last week, Tony, you had some photographs here--Joel, follow me--that I want you to tell me the significance of as we go through them. First of all, you have a photograph inside what you call the `death mansion,' the child's bedroom...

Mr. FROST: Yeah.

RIVERA: ...I'd not seen the picture--footprints indicated here near the bed. What's the significance, Tony?

Mr. FROST: Well, this is where the crime started, Geraldo, in JonBenet's pink-painted bedroom. And we see that the police cut into the carpet to take away samples of carpet. And there's two squares there, and that we believe--or we're told by our sources, police found fibers, possible signs of footprints. Now between the bed they took a--between JonBenet's bed and a spare bed, they took another square of carpet. This is where they initially thought there could be semen stains. This is where a fluid was found.

RIVERA: And here, her dresser. You show her little dresser with her--her little, you know, crown and whatever.

Mr. FROST: Sure.

RIVERA: What's the significance of this photo?

Mr. FROST: The significance of that is the experts we showed these photographs to--we showed them to five experts, all--all top in their field and Cyril Wecht was one of them--and they made the point that this was a very neatly kept dresser, including items like JonBenet's earrings, her tiara, her bracelets. And it was all neatly kept. Now--now that shows that there wasn't a struggle because if there had been a struggle, the odds are, say the experts, she would have knocked the dresser top and knocked some of these items off.

RIVERA: All right. A square cut out; you say semen stains. Now, Judianne, they may have found semen. It might not have had sperm in it, indicating...

Mr. FROST: That's right.

RIVERA: ...perhaps the donor was a man with a vasectomy. I don't know...

Dr. DENSEN-GERBER: I've asked for that, too. Whether...

Mr. FROST: That's right.

RIVERA: I don't know if John Ramsey had a vasectomy...

Dr. DENSEN-GERBER: I've asked that question.

RIVERA: ...or not, but go ahead, Tony. What about this?

Mr. FROST: The--the--the--the initial information that we had from our sources was that square was cut out because--because forensic investigators believed they had found a semen stain. That may not be the case, but that's what--one of the objects that's being tested at the laboratories at...

RIVERA: At Cellmark Diagnostic in Maryland...

Mr. FROST: Yeah.

RIVERA: ...this footprint in the--in the child's bathroom, I guess.

Mr. FROST: Yeah. Now the other thing we have is there was anoth--there was another square taken just inside the doorway of--o--of JonBenet's bedroom, and we traced the killer's steps that night from--from the bed where the crime took place--and this is where most experts believe she was killed, that she was choked on her bed. And then the killer dragged her, or carried her--part carried, part dragged down the spiral staircase. You can see do...

RIVERA: Down here?

Mr. FROST: ...do--down the--down the staircase. You can see that it's been dusted for fingerprints as has the--the outside of her door dusted for fingerprints.

RIVERA: OK, let me flip the page.

Mr. FROST: Now two--two more pages. We see the door to the cellar at the bottom of the spiral stair--at the bottom of the staircase, and then we go into the basement and we see the golf clubs--John--John Ramsey's mono--monog--monogrammed golf bag, another set of clubs, presumably Patsy's, beside it. And on the floor, traces of a red substance. This, we're told, is luminol, which is a chemical used to bring up bloodstains on--on--on floors--flooring and carpets. So...

RIVERA: OK. And here, the final photograph.

Mr. FROST: Her final resting place, where her body was dumped.

RIVERA: In the cold, dark cellar. Her body...

Mr. FROST: This is--this is an--this is an annex to the basement through--through this door here. Now initially, when the--when--when police came--a--and--this room was not searched. The door was jammed; it wasn't opened. And this is where John Ramsey, eight hours later--after the police were first called, this is where John Ramsey found JonBenet's bound body, ripped off the duct tape and took her upstairs and placed her un--beneath the Christmas tree.

RIVERA: All right, Tony, tell us, if you can, what's new? You've just put next week's edition to bed. What's in it?

Mr. FROST: We--we have more--further evidence here in the latest issue, Geraldo, more--more photos--five more photos which show a false lead that--that--that police believe was the--deliberately set in the basement. It's a window that was left ajar and police examined all around it and they came to the conclusion that no one came in or out of that window. They believe the killer opened it to--to mislead investigators.

RIVERA: And remember, folks, no footprints in the snow outside...

Mr. FROST: That's right.

RIVERA: ...no sign at all of forcible entry.

Mr. FROST: N--no. The other interesting thing, Geraldo, is that we're told police sources believe the killer wiped himself down and possibly wiped down JonBenet's body.

RIVERA: Himself or herself.

Mr. FROST: That's right. And--an--an--and we have the basement toilet which was ripped apart. The plumbing was taken to pieces by the investigators looking for traces of--o--of--of the fiber or material that--that was used to wipe--wipe JonBenet down and used--and--and--and the killer himself wiped himself down.

RIVERA: OK. Tony, thanks.

Mr. FROST: Sure.

RIVERA: Ladies and gentlemen, Marilyn Van Derber Atler knows a lot about what it feels like to be exploited as a child. She also knows what it feels like to be horribly abused by her own family. Her father, ladies and gentlemen, abused her in a sexual and emotional and--and mental way between the ages, I think, of five and 18 years old. She is Miss America 1958, and she knows of what she speaks. And we'll hear from Marilyn right after this.

We're Investigating Mom.


RIVERA: Here she is, Miss America, Marilyn Van Derber Atler, 1958. And as she talked there and paraded in front of all of us, what we didn't know is that she had a deep, dark and terrible secret. Her father, a prestigious man in the community, a wealthy man, a popular man, had abused her for 13 years.

When you see the video now--first of all, how old were you?

Ms. ATLER: Twenty.

RIVERA: So two years had gone by, more or less. First of all, welcome.

Ms. ATLER: Thank you.

RIVERA: Thank you for being here.

Ms. ATLER: Thank you for the work you do.

RIVERA: She's become a tireless campaigner against child abuse and exploitation, and we love her for that.

Let me ask another question. I know how you react, because we've been together before, when you see the--the videos of this little child. Tell us why you have such a negative response to her prancing and dancing.

Ms. ATLER: I--I think watching it today was as difficult as watching it the first time I saw it. Just seeing it over and over doesn't--doesn't take away how this chid was used, how she was exploited, how she did exactly what she was told to do.

Th--th--that's abuse, in my opinion. I--I've been asked to judge these Little Miss pageants for years. Who had any idea? Who had any idea what they--what at least this one was like? I don't know what all of them are like. But they should be outlawed. No girl should be involved in any sort of pageant like that until she's at least 16. We should end it.

RIVERA: There's definitely a sexual aspect to the way they costumed her.

Ms. ATLER: No question about that.

RIVERA: I saw that the first day. It is impossible--as that assistant DA in Denver said the very first day, `It's impossible to look at these videos and not see a terribly exploited child.' I believed that then, I believe that today. But here's our focus, Marilyn. We were wondering about Mom and we're wondering about what role, if any, your mother played--and I don't know to what extent you have spoken of this before--in this long, long period your father was so abusing and exploiting you.

Ms. ATLER: I haven't spoken of it before. I think most of us almost literally give our lives for our families because we don't want to destroy our families. I would never have put my father in jail. Let--let me rephrase that. I would never have put my father in jail until I learned only three years ago that he never stopped. My sister Gwen, who is six years older, when I went to talk to her, sh--she was 30, married with two children, and her first words were--to me were, `I thought I was the only one. I never should have left you. It's my fault.' She thought she was the only one. I knew I was the last one. And when I learned three years ago that my father never stopped, that he violated until he died at age 75--that's why many survivors come forward. They won't come forward for themselves, but if they find that their violator is continuing to violate, then they may come forward and say, `Not the next generation. No, no, we're going to end this.' So I would've--I would have pressed charges against my father knowing that.

My mother died in June, and I was a--a very good daughter to her and I was very respectful. And I would not--and I chose carefully what I said about my mother while still trying to educate. I think one of the most difficult sentences I've ever said in--in public--I was talking to 600 people, and one day I just--I just said, `My--my mother hurt me more than my father ever did.' And I was expecting people to say, `Why don't you leave? We don't understand that.' And these--these people were just nodding and coming up afterwards and saying, `Yes. I--yes.' And I know that's so hard to understand, but m--when I told my mother a year after my father died, she said she didn't believe me, which I was not prepared for at all. I mean, now I say to survivors, `Don't expect--don't--don't expect the support.' And when she said she didn't believe me, I just felt like I'd been--I was 48 years old.

She died in June. In November, I spoke in Medford, Oregon, and people stand up in line--stand in line to talk to me. And I noticed this woman in her 70s, pure white hair, waiting to talk to me and finally an hour, she gets up to me and she said, `You know, I worked for your father for a number of years.' And I said, `Really?'


Ms. ATLER: And she said--and I said, `I'm sorry.' Meaning, `I'm sorry that you--I know you adored them both and I'm sorry that you had to hear what I had to say tonight.' And she dropped her eyes and she said, `Actually, your mother was in touch with me twice since your story came forward,' which is 1991. And I said, `Really?' And she said, `She told me that what you were saying wasn't true.' And I thought, `Why doesn't that surprise me.' She defended my father t--to her death. She couldn't--she--my mother was not a mean or a vindictive person. You would have adored her. She was funny and--and smart and she had all the social graces. She just couldn't take my father on or--or s--or s--if she had accepted the fact that I was an incest survivor, then she had to say that--`Then I wasn't a mother and I--and I wasn't--then all that I thought I was, I wasn't.' That's real hard.

RIVERA: Did you ever share with your mother--I have this--and I--I--I'm sorry that I--I need to say this because I know this is going to be awful in a sense, but I have this image when I look at you now of something you described once of having you--how you would try to protect yourself, in a sense, from your father by going into the fetal position...

Ms. ATLER: Well, that's the only time...

RIVERA: ...and how he used to unpeel you in a sense.

Ms. ATLER: Well, Mother and I never talked about it. And when my story went public in 1991--I told her when I was 48 and my story went public when I was 53, and we still didn't talk about it. It's the elephant in the room that we--but one day she called me, about four--four years ago and she was--not crying, but close to it. And she said, `You said something that hurt me very badly today.' And I said, `I'm sorry, Mother, tell me--tell me what it is and I'll try not to say it again.' And she said, `You said your father pried you open.' And I said, `I did say that, Mother, because people are saying he molested me.' And I--people have to understand what that means. I locked my body into a tight fetal position and he pried me open. And she said, `Please don't say that again.' And I said, `I'll try not to.'

RIVERA: We'll be right back.

Ms. PAMELA GRIFFIN (Friend of Patsy Ramsey): (From upcoming segment) JonBenet wanted her makeup off after she competed, and Patsy was taking it off and got some in her eyes and it got a little bit red and swollen. But her eye isn't swollen from being hit.


(Excerpt from news report)

Unidentified Man #1: Can I ask you to respect her privacy? She does not want to answer any questions. She just wants to go home. Thank you.

Unidentified Man #2: Can you tell us why you were in Washington?

Ms. PATSY RAMSEY (JonBenet Ramsey's Mother): I had an oncology appointment with my oncologist today.

Man #2: Are you doing OK?

Ms. RAMSEY: I had a great checkup today.

Man #2: Good.

(End of excerpt)

RIVERA: That's Patsy Ramsey. I had not seen that. Rerack that, Donny, please? I had not seen that video. but I want Dr. Judianne Densen-Gerber, once more to take a look at this and...

DONNY (Cameraman): Camera one.

RIVERA: ...just roll it as soon...

Ms. RAMSEY: (From news footage) I had an oncology appointment...

RIVERA: Freeze it.

Ms. RAMSEY: ...with my oncol...

RIVERA: Comment, Judi?

Dr. DENSEN-GERBER: Well, the mother certainly is not as beautiful as the daughter, even in spite of the ages. I don't have any other comment.

RIVERA: She seems--she seems much more relaxed than the videos that I've seen.


RIVERA: Much more so.

Dr. DENSEN-GERBER: This is after the--the killing? That's an amazing picture. As you know, Geraldo, last year my son was killed in an accident and it took many months before I could even really appear in public.

RIVERA: And you were not even, obviously, involved in his tragic death.

Dr. DENSEN-GERBER: No, he was killed in California at 32.

RIVERA: Yeah. Well, you know, we e--we expressed our--our condolences to Judianne then. It's a horrible thing, too.

Yes, ma'am?

Unidentified Woman #1: Yes, my question's for Marilyn. I admire you for coming forward with this story. It's very difficult to hear. It must be very difficult to speak about. I was curious, is there a correlation between beauty pageant participants and sexual abuse?

Ms. ATLER: Well, that means we'd have to lump all beauty pageants into one, an--and there are so many different ones that--and I don't

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  Dr. Beuf 2/14/1997
Posted by: jameson245 - 03-04-2017, 05:09 PM - Forum: Prior sexual abuse - Replies (3)

"Dr. Beuf - NO abuse"
Posted by jams on Nov-18-00 at 08:55 PM (EST)

On Friday evening, February 14, 1997, KUSA-TV aired an interview with Dr. Beuf.

Anchor: JonBenet Ramsey's pediatrician says he is convinced she was not sexually abused.

And, he says, he told Boulder Police investigators that when they asked him.

He said he would only talk with one media person and that person was Paula Woodward.

Woodward: He said he wants the information he has as JonBenet's pediatrician out in the public, but he's appalled by media coverage and so will only talk once.

Dr. Francesco Beuf says he saw JonBenet 30 times in 3 years. He said the last time he saw her was five weeks before she died.

Woodward: When you talked with the police, did they ask you about sexual abuse of JonBenet?

Beuf: Yes, of course they did.

Woodward: What did you tell them?

Beuf: I told them absolutely, categorically no. There was absolutely no evidence - either physical or historical.

Woodward: And that's from seeing her 30 times in 3 years?

Beuf: About that.

Woodward: What else did they ask you?

Beuf: Oh, they asked many of the same questions you've been asking: relationship with her parents, what sort of child she was, if there was any indication of depression and sadness.

Woodward: And your answers?

Beuf: Only as appropriate. If she was sick, she wasn't feeling too well. If her mother was off being treated for cancer, she was sad at that.

Woodward: He talked with us in the treatment room where he saw her five weeks before she was killed.

Was she an ordinary kid?

Beuf: No. I think she was extraordinary in the amount of charm that she had. And sweetness was the quality I appreciated most.

Woodward: Where you aware of how much she was in beauty pageants or whether she was?

Beuf: I don't know how much she was in beauty pageants. When she was here, I think I heard it mentioned a couple of times. In the last year that she was doing it, it just wasn't a big deal. The big deal was how she was doing things with her friends here. How she was going to Michigan with her parents. Just the fun things in life. The beauty pageants just didn't seem to be at the top of the heap by any means.

Woodward: Tell me what she said to you.

Beuf: To be honest with you, I can't remember. I just remember it made me feel good to see that much happiness and niceness in one spot.

Woodward: Thirty visits in 3 years. He said her parents were good about getting her in and it wasn't an abnormal amount of visits.

Do you think JonBenet was sexually abused?

Beuf: I do not think she was sexually abused. I am convinced she wasn't sexually abused.

Woodward: Dr. Beuf also treats JonBenet's 10 year old brother Burke Ramsey. He describes him as a neat kid. Likes to play video games. That he's very bright and trying hard to deal with something he can't fully understand yet. Dr. Beuf says Burke Ramsey is just another nice kid whom he likes.

end of interview

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  A simple question
Posted by: jameson245 - 03-03-2017, 09:37 PM - Forum: Michael Tracey - No Replies

Now, what's your take on Micheal Tracey? Has he done more harm than good in the case? 

My answer:   Michael Tracey has NOT done more harm than good.  He and David Mills have done a LOT to get the truth out in times when all other media was crucifying John and Patsy.  He is human and has made some mistakes, but overall, he has been a powerhouse for truth.  We both worked on the A&E program that aired September 5th, 2016.  I think it was a great show.

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  In the beginning
Posted by: jameson245 - 03-03-2017, 07:51 PM - Forum: Pageants - Replies (15)

Miss West Virginia Pageant's Fiftieth Anniversary Celebration  - June 1994

"The following June, I returned to the pageant's Fiftieth Anniversary Celebration and reunited of former Miss West Virginias. I was bald from the chemo treatments, so I wore a wig, I was emaciated from losing so much weight, but I found a bright red beaded gown that only someone really skinny would wear, one side benefit to the chemo therapy. My sister Pam, who had been in the 1980 Miss West Virginia, and I sang " A Gershwin Melody" under the spotlight." [DOIpg54]


"My little girl, who was only three-and-a-half at the time, was in the audience that night," (snip) "As part of the show that evening, the president of the Miss American Pageant, Albert Marks, presented my parents with a special plaque of commendation for having sent two daughters to the national Miss American pageant." (snip) "In his remarks Mr. Marks said that he had met a little blond angel in a pretty pink dress who looked to him like a future Miss America. He was talking about JonBenet." [DOIpg54]


JonBenet began playing her game called "Presenting"

"When we returned home to Colorado, she began begging to be in a pageant. I would hear JonBenet playing a new game she called "Presenting" with her friends." (skip) "She would stand beside the door to the living room and give the okay. Then I would say, "Preeeesenting Miss JonBenet Ramsey." And she would jump out into the doorway. "Presenting" became JonBenet's favorite game." [DOIpg54]

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  Jay Pettipiece
Posted by: jameson245 - 03-03-2017, 07:41 PM - Forum: Housekeepers, workers in the house - No Replies

PMPT Page 435

"Another item on the detective’ list was locating the missing keys to the Ramseys’ house. Jay Pettipiece, a painter, told the police he couldn’t find his key. Susanne Savage, one of the JonBenet’s baby-sitters, found her key; she told Detective Harmer that she had never copied it or allowed anybody to have it, but remembered giving an extra one to Linda Wilcox."

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  Pam and Kristine Griffin
Posted by: jameson245 - 03-03-2017, 07:37 PM - Forum: Names to remember - No Replies

1997-12-21: Legacy of JonBenet - For friends, cops, neighbors, tragedy leaves its scars, life will never be the same
(Photo caption: Patrick Davison/Rocky Mountain News "Kristine Griffin, who was JonBenet's modeling coach, still has nightmares about her young friend, said her mother Pam, right. In her dreams, JonBenet tells Griffin, she saw the shoes of the man who killed her Dec. 26, 1996.")

By Lisa Levitt Ryckman
Rocky Mountain News Staff Writer
December 21, 1997


"Judith Phillips has spent much of the last year wondering why the Ramseys have cut her off without a word, after 14 years of friendship that began when they all lived in Atlanta and continued after they all moved to Boulder.

"It was devastating,'' Phillips said of being told by another friend of the Ramseys that she no longer was considered their friend. "To this day, I still don't know what I did.''

For Pam Griffin, a friend of Patsy Ramsey's who designed many of JonBenet's pageant costumes, it has been a year of proving herself a true and loyal friend -- but not without a cost.

This has taken from me a vulnerability I had hoped never to lose,'' said Griffin, who has often found herself as Patsy's lone defender on television talk shows.

A person who always greeted others with a hug, Griffin now tends to keep her distance; trust takes time.

"Now I just don't feel comfortable around a lot of people, and I always felt comfortable around everybody,'' she said. "I resent the tabloid media taking from me the right to be vulnerable if that's what I choose to do. That was something I hoped to keep all my life.''

The endless video loop of JonBenet in pageants, decked out in elaborate costumes designed by Griffin, has brought her some new clients, although she lost more than $30,000 in business from customers who disapproved of her Geraldo appearances. But despite the seemingly universal criticism of kiddie pageantry, the Colorado pageant circuit is booming -- thanks in part to JonBenet.

"It's bigger than it's ever been,'' said LaDonna Griego, who runs All Star Kids, a popular, family oriented pageant system in Colorado.

When JonBenet competed in All Star Kids' state pageant in April 1996, there were 12 children entered. This year, there were 50. Advertisements that used to elicit 300 phone calls now bring in twice that many.

"I think a lot of people didn't know pageants existed in Colorado,'' Griego said of the days before JonBenet's death. "When people call, I tell them they need to come and experience it before you look down on it or think it's wrong.

"Most people come and see, and I end up with their kids competing in the next one.''

Griego's 10-year-old daughter, Breanne, passed her Little Miss Colorado title along to JonBenet in May 1996, and she still happily competes. But JonBenet's death has shaken her.

"It scared my daughter very much,'' LaDonna Griego said. "Now she's sleeping in our bedroom. She still looks over her shoulder.''

The constant criticism of pageantry has wounded Breanne, mostly because it is something she loves.

"Having people trash it really bothers her,'' LaDonna Griego said. "My daughter has been known to go to the grocery store and hide all the Globes on the back shelf.''

Kristine Griffin, JonBenet's 19-year-old modeling coach, sometime-babysitter and dear friend, still suffers from the loss of her protege.

"This has been way too painful for her,'' said her mother, Pam Griffin. "JonBenet just adored Kristine, and the feeling was completely mutual.''

In recent weeks, Kristine has cried at the mention of JonBenet's name on television and has had vivid nightmares about her.

"I need to tell you what happened,'' JonBenet says to Kristine in her dreams. "I don't know who he is, but I saw his shoes.''

"If there was a way to communicate,'' Kristine said, "she might try to do it with me, just because we were so close, and she looked up to me. And maybe she would feel I would be the one she'd want to talk to.''

On Dec. 26, people who knew and loved JonBenet or simply want justice for her will show up at 7 p.m. in front of the Ramsey's old house in Boulder for a candlelight vigil organized by Judith Phillips.

"I have children who need closure on this,'' said Phillips, whose 10-year-old daughter, Lindsey, played with Burke and JonBenet. "It's been very difficult for her, very confusing, very scary.

Now questions haunt Lindsey, painful, unanswerable ones.

"Mommy, who would have done this terrible thing? What was JonBenet feeling? What's it like to die?'' she asks Phillips.

"Mommy, why would anyone murder a little girl who was so nice and so sweet?''

December 21, 1997

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  Shirley Brady
Posted by: jameson245 - 03-03-2017, 07:08 PM - Forum: Housekeepers, workers in the house - Replies (11)

Published in the Boulder Camera - January 10th, 1997

This is an awful way to start a new year after you get "Happy New Year" wishes from everyone.

I really don't feel happy and I wonder, how long will this sadness last? I never expected such a tragedy as little JonBenet's murder. Although I have not seen her since she was a baby, I have talked to her mother several times. I'll always remember the family as kind, good people; a soft-spoken father who is kind and loving, and his children are his life, and a beautiful mother who is always radiant. She's the only woman I've ever seen who comes to breakfast in her housecoat and looks like a ray of sunshine.

I was the housekeeper and nanny to their little son who was born while I was there. Both are devoted parents and I was crazy about Burke. I used to rock him to sleep; he loved Handel's Messiah's "Halleluiah Chorus." I have in my heart and mind so many happy memories of the whole family including grandparents and aunts. The oldest children had so much grace and class, so well behaved and refined.

When I saw that little coffin and the grieving parents, I was stunned. Who could do such a violent, crazy deed? It is plain insanity for anyone to even think a family member would have done it. After Mr. Ramsey's oldest daughter died, JonBenet was his salvation to go on from his sorrow, loosing his oldest.

Burke adored his little sister. When I babysat, I watched him playing with her when she woke up. He would tell me she woke up so I could change her. He always was a highly motivated, intelligent child. He figured out at 5 months in his walker, how to unscrew every doorknob in his kitchen. I used to call him "Super Kid." I took him to the piano and took his little finger to play: "Twinkle, Twinkle, Little Star." He enjoyed it at least five minutes, which is a long time for a six months old. He loved for me to read to him. I could write a book about them, titled "The Love of One Family."

I was asked how Mr. Ramsey is taking all the tragedies in his life. I said he has a tremendous inner strength - he is like the Rock of Gibralter. He will never ever forget it, but he lets God comfort him in the belief, what He does, he accepts it. Mrs. Ramsey is the same. When you have two people loving each other like they do, nothing can come between them. They share tragedies together.

Finally, as I wrote in their card:

God gave you JonBenet for a little while. Now she is in heaven, in the sunshine of God's smile.

God bless all of you for supporting them.

Americus, Ga.

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  Please Remember Me
Posted by: jameson245 - 03-03-2017, 06:20 PM - Forum: Vicki Emery paid for these ads - Replies (6)

Quote:[Image: 07262001jonbenetad.jpg]2001-07-26: JonBenet Letter Ads

July 26, 2001

Please Remember Me

My birthday was August 6th. My favorite thing to do on my birthday was to play putt-putt golf. Once I even got a hole-in-one and my grandma did too! We jumped up and down and laughed so hard. Lots of people in my family have summer birthdays and we would all celebrate together in Michigan. My favorite cake ever was the one with the Little Mermaid on top and lots and lots of sprinkles. I was so excited when I got a Samantha doll for my 6th birthday that I stood on my head ! I was really good at that and I could stay up longer than anybody.

Please, find my killer.

If you have information that will help, please contact: JBLeads, P.O.Box 3608 Minneapolis, MN 55403 or Email: JBLeads@aol.com (Paid for by V.Emery @Friends For Jonbenet

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  skid marks
Posted by: jameson245 - 03-01-2017, 05:05 PM - Forum: Feces - Replies (3)

From the 1998 interrogation with Tom Haney

PATSY RAMSEY: It looks like her underwear
8 drawer, one of the drawers there in the bathroom
9 cabinet.
10 TOM HANEY: What is in there?
11 PATSY RAMSEY: It looks like underwear, a
12 hair band or something, and a pencil, a pen, a pen back
13 there. (Inaudible). A magic marker or something. I
14 don't know why that would be in there, but --
15 TOM HANEY: And in the normal course there at
16 home would just underwear be in there or would other
17 items be in there, too.
18 PATSY RAMSEY: Primarily underwear, but
19 she -- often times things would be on the top and fall
20 down in the drawers. But that be unusual for a pen
21 like that to be in an underwear drawer.
22 TOM HANEY: How about other clothing items,
23 would they end up in there or would they be there?
24 PATSY RAMSEY: Well, yeah, you know, those
25 two or three drawers would be underwear, pajamas, you

1 know. So, you know, they may not get in the exact
2 right drawer every time.
3 TOM HANEY: Could there have been the long
4 underwear.
5 PATSY RAMSEY: Yes. I think I had long
6 underwear.


16 TOM HANEY: How about 378?
17 PATSY RAMSEY: This is JonBenet's floor, her
18 pants.
19 TOM HANEY: Do you recall those particular
20 pants, when she would have worn those last?
21 PATSY RAMSEY: Not for sure. Probably
22 recently because they are dropped in the middle of the
23 floor, but I don't remember exactly.
24 TOM HANEY: They are kind of inside out.

1 TOM HANEY: 379 is a close up of it.
2 appears they are stained.
4 TOM HANEY: Is that something that JonBenet
5 had a problem with?
6 PATSY RAMSEY: Well she, you know, she was at
7 age where she was learning to wipe herself and, you
8 know, sometimes she wouldn't do such a great job.
9 TOM HANEY: Did she have accidents, if you
10 will, in the course of the day or the night, as opposed
11 to just bed wetting?
12 PATSY RAMSEY: Not usually, no, huh-uh. That
13 would probably be more from just not wiping real well.

14 TOM HANEY: Okay. Do you know how long those
15 would have been in that position in 378 on the floor in
16 there?
17 PATSY RAMSEY: It depends when she wore them
18 last.
19 TOM HANEY: Again, do you recall?
20 PATSY RAMSEY: I don't remember.
21 TOM HANEY: On Christmas day were you in that
22 bathroom at all?
23 PATSY RAMSEY: Very likely, but I can't say
24 for sure.
25 TOM HANEY: Had you been in there that day,

1 would you have done something with them?

2 PATSY RAMSEY: Well, I got, you know -- that
3 night I got -- I know I got the long Johns for her out
4 of that bathroom.
5 TOM HANEY: Right, out of one of the draws in
6 there.

8 TOM HANEY: Do you recall seeing those on the
9 floor that night when you got the --
11 TOM HANEY: -- underwear.
12 PATSY RAMSEY: They could have been there. I
13 don't know.
14 TOM HANEY: Could have.
15 PATSY RAMSEY: Could have been there, yes.
16 Don't know for sure.
17 TOM HANEY: Is it possible that some point
18 during the night she would have gotten up and put those
19 on or thrown them down there or changed in some way;
20 trying to account for those being there.
21 PATSY RAMSEY: I just -- I can't imagine
22 that. No, because I put those -- she was zonked out
23 asleep, so I put her to bed. And she had those, she
24 had worn the black velvet ones to Priscilla's.
25 What she had on earlier that day, I just

1 can't remember. It might have been those. I just
2 can't remember. Could have taken those off, you know,
3 gotten the dress to go to Priscilla's and then left
4 them there.

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