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  Francine Knox killed 7 month old nephew
Posted by: jameson245 - 03-05-2017, 02:26 PM - Forum: Stun Gun - No Replies

A Baby's Stun-Gun Death -  May 28, 1994

PEORIA, Ill., Nov. 24— A woman was charged on Wednesday with killing her 7-month-old nephew with an electric stun gun in an effort to stop his crying. The accused, Francine Knox, 37, who was also the foster mother of the baby, Brandon Jordan, repeatedly used the stun gun "to silence the child as he cried through the night," the authorities said. Stun guns, box-shaped weapons with two small metal prongs that typically transmit a 50,000-volt charge, are used by some police departments to temporarily disable violent suspects.


Francine Knox, 37, was charged with manslaughter Wednesday in the May 28 death of Brandon Jordan.

Knox was not charged immediately because authorities were investigating other cases and the effects of stun guns on children, officials said.

The infant was the son of Knox's brother, Anthony Jordan Jr., and Carolyn Hollins. After the couple lost custody of their four children, Brandon was placed in Knox's care.


Foster Mother Gets 14 Years in Stun-Gun Death of Nephew
PEORIA, Ill. - A Peoria woman convicted of electrocuting her baby nephew
with a stun gun because he would not stop crying has been sentenced to 14 years
in prison.
Francine Knox, 38, was convicted in June of involuntary manslaughter,
aggravated battery of a child and child endangerment in the May 28, 1994, death
of 7-month-old Brandon Jordan.
She was the boy's foster mother. He was born to a cocaine-addicted
sister-in-law of Knox.
Prosecutors said Knox first tried to quiet Brandon with cough and cold
medicine. When that did not work, Knox, irritated and sleep-deprived, stunned
the boy as he sat in a car seat in her bedroom about 2 a.m., prosecutors said.
Defense lawyers claimed any of five other people in the home at the time
could have killed the boy, and claimed police failed to properly investigate
the possibility.
Knox said at Wednesday's sentencing that she is "proud of my children and
everything I've done with them." She named several, including her daughter and
about 10 foster children she has cared for over the years. She did not mention

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  Who are the BORG?
Posted by: jameson245 - 03-05-2017, 08:50 AM - Forum: We Are the BORG. - Replies (3)

In Star Trek, they are a group known for taking over other thriving communities.  Individuals in those communities are forced to be "assimilated" into the BORG, they are implanted with nanoprobes and become drones who are not allowed to question or debate their host. 

From Wikipedia:

Borg Collective[edit]

Also referred to as the "hive mind" or "collective consciousness", the Borg Collective is a civilization with a group mind. Each Borg individual, or drone, is linked to the collective by a sophisticated subspace network that ensures each member is given constant supervision and guidance. The collective is broadcast over a subspace domain similar to that used by the transporter. Being part of the collective offers significant biomedical advantages to the individual drones. The mental energy of the group consciousness can help an injured or damaged drone heal or regenerate damaged body parts or technology. The collective consciousness not only gives them the ability to "share the same thoughts", but also to adapt with great speed to defensive tactics used against them.

In the Ramsey saga, it isn't much different.  There started out being different theories and different groups were forming, one, the Ramsey supports, was a very small group.  Lots were on the fence and then there were the ones who just believed it had to be the parents.  They started out being just a group with an opinion, but it wasn't long before that became an agenda.  Other posters were more than encouraged to adopt that theory - and if they did not they were criticized, shunned, attacked themselves and sometimes just banned from forums.

 The "hive mind" or "collective consciousness", the Borg Collectiv group mind is found in the Ramsey ynch mob.

 Each Borg individual, or drone, is linked to the collective by a sophisticated subspace network called the Internet.  Each member is given constant supervision and guidance, told where to post, where not to post, where to read, where not to read.  WHAT not to read.  WHO not to read.

Most members of the Ramsey BORG, for example, have been advised not to read pro-Ramsey books as they might get confused.  They can't read this forum because they may get educated and lose their BORG footing.

Being part of the BORG offers significant emotional advantages to the individual drones. The mental energy of the group consciousness can help an injured or damaged drone heal by assuring them they are right. (Steve Thomas is a good man, he is right and he believes.  or Hell, CBS even showed Burke hitting her in the head!)

The collective consciousness not only gives them the ability to "share the same thoughts", but also to adapt with great speed to defensive tactics used against them.  Like being in a gang (When you're a Jet, you're a Jet all the way.)  they join forces and intentionally try to "take down" those who wouldn't be assimilated.  (Those who read everything and made educated efforts to find the truth.)

Lou Smit recognized the online (and BOULDER) lynch mob as a BORG type civilization - - he shared that with me and I adopted the term.

That is who BORG is.

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  McKinley on the EDGE before GJ ended
Posted by: jameson245 - 03-04-2017, 07:51 PM - Forum: Grand Jury Indictments - No Replies

October 12, 1999, Tuesday
Transcript # 101201cb.260
SECTION: News; Domestic
LENGTH: 2270 words
HEADLINE: The JonBenet Ramsey Grand Jury
GUESTS: Carol McKinley; Craig Silverman; Jeralyn Merritt
BYLINE: Paula Zahn
PAULA ZAHN, HOST: I'm Paula Zahn. This is THE EDGE.
Tonight: Late word out of Boulder, Colorado, tonight is that the grand jury will meet one more time. Will they finally tell us who they think may have killed JonBenet Ramsey?
But first FOX NEWS live.
ZAHN: Tonight on THE EDGE: O.J. Simpson is back.
going into a rehab." She got mad. She just got in her car. Now she's loaded out of her mind in her Mustang, driving around town. She needs to be stopped.
ZAHN: So what's he up to now? We'll have a report. Plus, a FOX exclusive. If Vermont authorities catch this woman, they'll take her son away. Why? They say she's not qualified to home school him. She says she is, claiming
Page 1
the schools are bad. Tonight we'll hear both sides, and you can be the judge. And later, an EDGE update. We told community. Well, he did, but not in person. And we're going to show you what happened.
All that's next on THE EDGE.
Leading THE EDGE tonight, the clock is ticking and time is running out for the grand jury investigating the murder of JonBenet Ramsey. Hundreds of members of the press are camped outside the courtroom tonight. One of them is FOX NEWS's Carol McKinley.
CAROL MCKINLEY, FOX NEWS: Hello there, Paula.
It's "hurry up and wait" again for this grand jury. We just found out that this grand jury is coming back tomorrow. So on Wednesday of eight women and four men. We don't know what they're doing inside. We can only guess, but I do know that Dr. Henry Lee is very skeptical of the outcome. I talked with him on Monday, and he says the longer the grand jury meets with no additional evidence, it's like they're beating a dead horse.
(voice-over): Grand jurors found themselves in the center of a media storm when they arrived at the Boulder County Justice Center Tuesday morning. The eight women and four men stayed behind closed doors most of the day, possibly deliberating, leaving the media to wonder outside.
People across the country are enthralled with the JonBenet Ramsey murder case, but most Boulder-ites are tired of
BOULDER RESIDENT: I have no opinion. Thanks.
BOULDER RESIDENT: Care not to talk about it at all.
MCKINLEY: There were some residents willing to give an opinion.
BOULDER RESIDENT: The cops blew it.
BOULDER RESIDENT: Somebody reported a murder and they came in my house, I would be leaving in handcuffs, not after coffee, not after a drink, not after a week of tranquilizers.
BOULDER RESIDENT: This has gone on too long, and I don't think that much is going to happen with it, so...
MCKINLEY: Rumors were flying John and Patsy Ramsey were in Boulder Tuesday, but FOX NEWS has confirmed the couple is in Georgia waiting to hear news from the grand jury, just like everyone else. This panel has just over a week left in its term, but it probably won't need that much time. A decision is expected this week.
CRAIG SILVERMAN, FORMER DEPUTY DA OF BOULDER: You have to expect these grand jurors want justice for JonBenet.
MCKINLEY: Legal analysts say it's anyone's guess what the grand jury will decide.
SILVERMAN: If they're like the rest of the country, they probably have a diversity of opinions. But remember, it only takes nine out of twelve finding probable cause to indict.
Page 2
The JonBenet Ramsey Grand Jury FOX NEWS NETWORK October 12, 1999, Tuesday
MCKINLEY: Former Boulder detective Steve Thomas (ph) has said publicly the police had probable cause early on in this case. Investigative sources tell FOX NEWS the grand jury has been stuck somewhere between probable cause and reasonable doubt and that DA Alex Hunter doesn't want to move forward unless he has reasonable doubt.
I talked to some people who saw Alex Hunter in his office today pacing back and forth. They say he looks very tense. I called the Georgia Bureau of Investigation, Paula, and these are the people who would go out and make a public arrest, if there's going to be one. They tell me they haven't heard from the Boulder police in months. In fact, they don't even know where John and Patsy Ramsey are.
We're live in Boulder. I'm Carol McKinley, FOX NEWS.
ZAHN: Well, that certainly wouldn't suggest an imminent arrest, would it.
MCKINLEY: No, it wouldn't. You know, it could be one of two things, Paula. It could mean that there's been an agreement for the Ramseys to be flown out here in a private jet and these things will be done in private, or it could mean there's not going to be any kind of indictment at all. If the Georgia Bureau of Investigation's out of the loop, it's pretty concerning.
ZAHN: Your sources have told you that the grand jury is hung up on probable cause or reasonable doubt. Do we have any idea what the specific evidence is that they're troubled by at the moment?
MCKINLEY: The specific evidence is this DNA, which points to no one, we keep hearing about. They found it in JonBenet's underwear. It's mixed with her own blood. They've gone out and tested hundreds of people to find the owner of that DNA. So far, no one's turned up. Prosecutors have tried to tell this grand jury, "Let's get past the DNA. Look at what we do have, a ransom note two and a half pages, plus three only -- only three known people who were in the house that night." But this DNA keeps rearing its ugly head, and this could be what's holding the grand jury up.
ZAHN: And you mentioned, Carol, that you had had a conversation with forensics expert Henry Lee, and he is on the record said how difficult it is for this grand jury to come up with any kind of verdict, based on the lack of evidence and/or witnesses. Is that also something that you hear that troubles the grand jury?
MCKINLEY: Well, I believe they have enough witnesses and they have Ramseys to help them out. I really think that Henry Lee is still hanging onto that DNA that doesn't point to anyone. Remember his history with the O.J. Simpson CASE. But Henry Lee's just another guy. It doesn't mean that that's what the grand jury thinks. We're just going to have to wait.
ZAHN: All right, Carol McKinley, thanks so much for that update.
Joining me now to discuss the investigation is Craig Silverman, a former chief deputy district attorney of Boulder, and criminal defense attorney Jeralyn Merritt.
Thank you both for joining us.
ZAHN: Thanks. Hello.
So Craig, what is your assessment of what the grand jury is dealing with at the moment?
SILVERMAN: Well, they're dealing with Alex Hunter. And let me correct you. I worked as a chief deputy in Denver, not in Boulder. I'm not sure I would have worked for Alex Hunter. He has a very unusual prosecutorial style.
Page 3
The JonBenet Ramsey Grand Jury FOX NEWS NETWORK October 12, 1999, Tuesday
He is by far the most liberal and probably timid prosecutor in all of Colorado. And I wouldn't be surprised if he's trying to persuade this grand jury not to indict.
But you know, the law is the law, and the law says that if there's probable cause, the grand jury is supposed to indict. Yet Alex Hunter may be trying to dissuade them from that, arguing "Hey, if there's not proof beyond a reasonable doubt, don't stick me with an indictment because then it would cause problems for me."
ZAHN: Jeralyn, would that be the right way to go for Alex Hunter, or is that not a legitimate stance to have?
MERRITT: I'm not sure that I agree with that assessment. First of all, it's true that the only thing the grand jury needs to indict is probable cause. However, the canons of ethics for prosecutors require that a case not be filed unless the prosecutor has a good-faith belief that he or she can prove that case by proof beyond a reasonable doubt.
However, in this instance, I believe that the DAs are trying mightily to get this grand jury to indict, but that something is stopping this grand jury. I agree with Carol McKinley that I believe it's the DNA. I believe it's the science. Henry Lee has also said that you need four things to make a good prosecution. You need a good crime scene, you need eyewitnesses, you need major pieces of physical evidence, and you need luck. He said, "In this case, we don't have any of those." So there may well not be an indictment.
ZAHN: Craig?
SILVERMAN: Who brought in Henry Lee? It was Alex Hunter. Alex Hunter, in his wisdom, chose to bring in Barry Scheck and Henry Lee, two incredibly smart people who had just been the most responsible for gaining O.J. Simpson an acquittal. That was their claim to fame. You know...
MERRITT: But they weren't...
SILVERMAN: ... Barry Scheck...
MERRITT: They weren't responsible...
SILVERMAN: Barry Scheck is a very...
MERRITT: ... for the crime scene in this case.
SILVERMAN: No, but it's highly predictable that if Henry Lee found a cockroach in the spaghetti in the O.J. Simpson case, he was going to find problems with this plate of pasta. We all knew the crime scene was compromised in this matter. Alex Hunter...
ZAHN: Let's talk about...
SILVERMAN: ... chose...
ZAHN: ... that for a moment, Craig...
ZAHN: ... before you go any further. Just how compromised was it? We know, in fact, that the police allowed for Mr. Ramsey to taint the scene when he went and located his daughter himself.
SILVERMAN: Absolutely. And you know, he's the one who brought up his daughter. He's the one who handled his daughter. This stray DNA, God only knows where it may have come from. But aside and apart from the problems in the case, you have a ransom note which was an obvious indication of staging. And you just go back to common
Page 4
The JonBenet Ramsey Grand Jury FOX NEWS NETWORK October 12, 1999, Tuesday
sense and the utter preposterous scenario that a stranger, an intruder, would come into that house, do the things he did to JonBenet and then sit down and write the "War and Peace" of ransom notes. It just doesn't make sense.
MERRITT: But Craig, common sense does not substitute for science. And in order for you to have some scientific evidence, you're going to have to have evidence that's properly collected at the crime scene. It must be properly stored, properly tested. Otherwise you can't trust the integrity of the results.
We also don't know that anyone has made a determination for the -- even for the Colorado Bureau of Investigation, as to who wrote that ransom note. Without knowing who wrote the ransom note, it's pretty hard to figure out who is responsible for the death of this child.
ZAHN: But isn't it true that the Colorado Bureau of Investigation indicated that Patsy Ramsey very likely wrote that note?
MERRITT: I believe...
ZAHN: I thought that was the conclusion CBI drew.
MERRITT: I think their conclusion was that there are "indications" that Patsy Ramsey may have written the note, which is the lowest run on the handwriting totem pole.
ZAHN: All right, Jeralyn...
SILVERMAN: Right, but...
ZAHN: ... Craig, if you would, stand by. We're going to take a short break and continue our conversation.
And what do you think of the JonBenet Ramsey murder case? Will you an email or call us toll-free with your comments.
We'll be right back.
ZAHN: And it's time to talk more about the JonBenet Ramsey murder investigation. Craig Silverman and Jeralyn Merritt are back.
Jeralyn, you mentioned this note that CBI indicated Patsy Ramsey might have written. Do you think it's a compelling piece of evidence?
MERRITT: I think if there was strong evidence that she wrote the note, it would be a compelling piece of evidence because I think it's obvious that whoever wrote the note was somehow involved in the death of this child. But I really believe that handwriting evidence is not science, to begin with. It's problematic when you try and get it introduced at trial. For example, in the Oklahoma City bombing case, the federal judge would not even allow the government's expert to give an opinion as to who wrote certain documents. So I think that the handwriting by itself is not going to be enough in this case.
ZAHN: And do you think that's something, Craig, that's giving the grand jury a problem?
SILVERMAN: No, I don't think so. I think handwriting is very compelling evidence. I have a person on death row
Page 5
The JonBenet Ramsey Grand Jury FOX NEWS NETWORK October 12, 1999, Tuesday
who I put there partially as a result of handwriting analysis. Your viewers can attest to the fact that they can identify relatives' handwriting. The ransom note is key. The whole scene was staged. This was not what the killer small foreign faction. Who would want to do that but for someone disguising a killing in the family?
MERRITT: But Craig, if it was an intruder and this killing does have earmarks of being a violent, brutal, planned murder, perhaps done for revenge, then that person would have tried to obscure their handwriting, as well.
SILVERMAN: You know, revenge against who? You know, they said they were a "small foreign faction." The FBI came, and you would think they would be concerned. Mr. Ramsey's business was associated with Lockheed-Martin. If there was a true international threat, I doubt the FBI would have walked away so fast. They understood what it was. This was, as so often is the case, a killing that most probably occurred within the family.
ZAHN: OK, thanks so much. We got to move on now.

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  the White letters
Posted by: jameson245 - 03-04-2017, 07:14 PM - Forum: Fleet and Priscilla White - Replies (7)

The Whites' First Letter-Jan. 1998
As witnesses in the JonBenet Ramsey murder investigation, we are reluctant to express our views regarding the investigation. At this time, however, we feel compelled to address matters which we feel to be of great importance.
There is a widely held perception that the investigation has been plagued by intense news media coverage and the improper conduct of the Boulder Police Department and the Boulder County District Attorney.
There can be no question that the wide circulation of facts, evidence, and opinions has had a debilitating effect on the investigation. Equally damaging, however, have been public statements made by officials which, because of their nature and discontinuity, have created confusion and anxiety not only for the public but also for law enforcement personnel and witnesses. It must be clear at this point that the extraordinary circumstances of this crime and its investigation do not lend themselves to discussion or debate in a public forum. Doing so will only serve to jeopardize the civil rights of involved parties, reduce the willingness of witnesses to cooperate, and make the task of law enforcement agencies investigating the case more difficult.
Public officials who contemplate the release of information concerning the case or who desire to publicly express their opinions must be mindful of these risks. Such statements and the release of information should only serve the goals of furthering the investigation or protecting the public. There are simply no other valid reasons for making information regarding the investigation available to the public. It is likely that few, if any, statements of fact or opinion made by public officials concerning the Ramsey investigation have met this standard. For this case to proceed in a positive manner it will be necessary to do all that is practically possible to integrate the activities of a prosecutor and police investigators and shield their investigation from public view until such time when an arrest is made.
As witnesses, we have developed confidence and trust in Boulder Police Department investigators. While we recognize that errors have been made in the investigation, we feel strongly that these officers and their leadership are committed both personally and professionally to assembling a valid case which will lead to an arrest and conviction. Furthermore, we are greatly encouraged by their addition of competent legal counsel who are aiding their investigation.
We have not, on the other hand, developed such sentiments toward the Boulder County District Attorney. On the contrary, we feel that the Boulder County District Attorney has not acted in a manner consistent with an agency which must work with police investigators and witnesses in a positive and professional manner. Our sentiments toward the Boulder County District Attorney are based on our personal experiences which have been augmented by the following considerations:
There are various relationships between the Boulder County District Attorney and members of the Boulder and Denver legal communities which may have impaired the objectivity of the Boulder County District Attorney with respect to a case brought before it by the Boulder Police Department.
The Boulder County District Attorney under the leadership of District Attorney Alex Hunter has been criticized in the past for not being an aggressive prosecutor of homicide cases.
There appears to be an atmosphere of distrust and non-cooperation between the Boulder County District Attorney and the Boulder Police Department regarding the investigation. This relationship appears to be irreparably damaged with respect to the Ramsey case.
There is a strong impression that the Boulder County District Attorney has acted improperly by sharing evidence and other information with attorneys and other parties not officially involved in the investigation.
There is a strong impression that Alex Hunter and members of his staff have acted inappropriately by giving their opinions and information regarding the investigation to various news media organizations. This impression has been strengthened recently by the statements made by District Attorney Alex Hunter appearing in the Jan. 19, 1998, issue of New Yorker magazine. His comments regarding the police investigation are mean-spirited and entirely devoid of any constructive aspect. We feel that his decision to state publicly these opinions regarding an on-going homicide investigation clearly defines his poor judgment and wanton disregard for all parties involved in this investigation and for the criminal justice system. The fact that he made some of these statements five months ago, as has been recently suggested, does nothing to make them less inexcusable. What public service did Mr. Hunter envision when he made such statements and revealed details of the investigation over a period of five months to a noted journalist who has publicly announced his intention to write a book about the investigation?
These considerations cannot be ignored in an attempt to understand the present status of the investigation or in anticipating its future course. At a minimum, these considerations have created the strong appearance of impropriety, professional incompetence and a lack of objectivity. Additionally, the suit against Alex Hunter brought by Darnay Hoffman, regardless of its merit, has reinforced this appearance in the public consciousness. In this context, the following questions must be asked:
Is the Boulder County District Attorney capable of inspiring the confidence and trust of police investigators and relevant witnesses in order that a case may be developed in such a manner as to maximize the likelihood of an arrest?
Is the Boulder County District Attorney capable of objectively and professionally evaluating the merit of a case presented to it by the Boulder Police Department?
Is the Boulder County District Attorney capable of aggressively and professionally coordinating and conducting a prosecution or other court proceedings in a manner most likely to result in an indictment and a successful prosecution?
On Dec. 18, 1997, we met with Gov. Roy Romer to urge that he intervene immediately to remove the Boulder County District Attorney from any involvement in the case and appoint an independent special prosecutor. On Jan. 7, 1998, we were notified by Governor Romer that he had decided not to intervene. In a Jan. 12, 1998, letter from Gov. Romer, we were formally notified of his decision. In this letter, he stated that he had "decided not to intervene in this matter at this time" and indicated that his decision was "based in part on the fact that the police investigation is not yet complete and the case has not been referred to the district attorney for prosecution." While he did not specify what other factors were considered in arriving at his decision, we can only hope that they derive from sound recommendations received from knowledgeable and unbiased officials involved in the investigation who are in possession of compelling facts which are not available to us.
If Gov. Romer is inclined to intervene but feels that such a decision would now be untimely, we would submit that the passage of time cannot be expected to reduce the obstacles facing the investigation and the prosecution. In their effort to follow evidence, construct a valid case, and to maintain the confidence of witnesses, the Boulder Police Department needs the immediate participation and guidance of a supportive and competent prosecutor.
The idea of waiting for the case to be "completed" and to be "referred" to the Boulder County District Attorney presupposes that the negative effect of the presence of the Boulder County District Attorney in the investigation will somehow be mitigated in the future. It ignores the practical problem that the Boulder Police Department and relevant witnesses have no confidence in the ability of the Boulder County District Attorney to prudently handle evidence and to professionally and impartially consider a case presented to it.
Furthermore, it is unreasonable for Governor Romer or for any of us to rely on civic and law enforcement officials who offer assurances that they can somehow eliminate the differences between the Boulder Police Department and the Boulder County District Attorney in an effort to move the case forward purposefully when they have so amply demonstrated their inability to do so. Nor should we or Gov. Romer rely on the Hoffman suit or similar actions that may follow. It appears that these will only result in meaningless debate over semantics and, at best, lead to protracted and contentious court proceedings and investigations. As for the concern that the removal of the Boulder County District Attorney from the Ramsey case will jeopardize the future relationship between the Boulder Police Department and the Boulder County District Attorney on other cases, it is more likely that the continued presence of the Boulder County District Attorney in the Ramsey case will only serve to lessen the prospects of a healthy future relationship.
We again respectfully request that Gov. Romer intervene in this matter and level the playing field in Boulder. The Boulder Police Department has but one goal in this matter which is to bring the person or persons who have committed crimes to justice. The police are handicapped by those who are acting to obfuscate and confuse the facts of this investigation. At this point there is little to be gained by speculating about who these people are and what reasons they may have for doing so. That can be left for another day. We request that Governor Romer immediately intervene and remove the Boulder County District Attorney and its offices from the investigation and appoint a competent and completely independent special prosecutor who is capable of establishing and maintaining the confidence and the trust of the Boulder Police Department, witnesses in the case, and the public whereby to maximize the likelihood of a successful conclusion to this case. Regardless of the nature of his decision, we request that Governor Romer announce it publicly and that he make clear his reasoning. We ask the people of Colorado and especially the people of Boulder to join us in this respect.
The investigation of the murder of JonBenet Ramsey has profoundly hurt many innocent people. It has caused the Boulder community and many of its leaders and institutions to be degraded. It has engendered contempt for Boulder`s law enforcement agencies and criminal justice system. Governor Romer, with the support of the people of Boulder, must attend to these matters now.

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  krugman interview
Posted by: jameson245 - 03-04-2017, 06:01 PM - Forum: The Autopsy - Replies (1)

Burden of Proof - Monday, December 29, 1997

Krugman interviewed on Burden of Proof

Also former FBI profiler Van Zandt

December 29, 1997

This transcript just covers the Ramsey case section

COSSACK: Doctor, you are a leading child abuse expert. The police brought to you the autopsy report of JonBenet Ramsey for your opinion. You concluded that this was not perhaps a case of sex abuse, but perhaps a case of child abuse, why?
KRUGMAN: Well first Roger child abuse to me includes physical abuse, sexual abuse, and a variety of other forms of abuse and neglect. What I said at the time was that I couldn't say with certainty that this was a sexual abuse case. It clearly was a physical abuse case. And it was a physical abuse case because of the massive brain injury, the skull fracture, and because of the strangulation.
COSSACK: Why were you not able to say with certainty about a sexual abuse case, Doctor?
KRUGMAN: Well for one to know with certainty that sexual abuse occurred that night I think one would need some forensic evidence that I'm not sure is available. I haven't seen any certainly to make me feel that way. There are a lot of people around the country who have from afar or even from looking at the autopsy said they are certain she was sexually abused. The problem is that children who are sexually abused may or may not have any physical findings. The reason I wouldn't say with certainty that she was or wasn't is because at least 40% of children have absolutely no physical findings and they are being sexually abused; whereas children who have some physical findings around the genital area, may have been physically abused or may have been sexually abused. And I saw nothing to let me know with certainty that sexual abuse was here in this particular case that particular night.
COSSACK: Doctor you made a statement which almost made it sound though that you believe that the sexual abuse was a coverup to perhaps hide the amount of physical abuse. Do you have a feel on that area?
KRUGMAN: In my view that's certainly a possibility.
COSSACK: Well why would you suggest that it is a coverup? I mean, what is there to suggest sexual abuse being a coverup to perhaps hide physical abuse?
KRUGMAN: Well let's again be careful of our terms. There was a lesion an abrasion on the hymen. That may have been part of sexual abuse. That may have been part of physical abuse. That may have been part of a coverup. I just don't see enough things in the autopsy to say with certainty what happened. And I think the main problem we have with this case and in this country is that we are using the wrong system that is the criminal justice system to try to deal retrospectively with a problem like child abuse, which is an enormous public health problem and has killed over 2,000 other children anonymously since JonBenet died.
COSSACK: Doctor what I am and I agree with you, of course, but what I am particularly interested in is your use of the word coverup here as some sort of way of perhaps hiding something. And I'm trying to get you to explain that to me.
KRUGMAN: Well I'm not sure I can explain it to you Roger other than to say that when you see an injury someplace on a child there can be a lot of different reasons why that injury is there. And if you are involved in an investigation or you are trying to work out diagnostic possibilities you need to think of them all and then you need to have other information that helps you sort out those possibilities.
COSSACK: Alright. Clint, working for the FBI, and we have heard the doctor explain leading abuse expert explain that perhaps there were some things that maybe we use word coverup maybe not. Where does that lead you? I mean, in terms of looking possible suspects, where does that lead you?
CLINT VAN ZANDT: Well you know one of the things you have to look at Roger is we have to differentiate between a pedophile and someone who would abduct a child for ransom two different breeds of cat. We don't have a cross-fertilization, psychologically, between these two different types of individuals. We also look at, from an investigative standpoint, usually it is 12 to one. When we look at the number of children that are killed around JonBenet's age, older, younger, 12 to one it is usually someone it is usually a parent or somebody within the home; somebody who has access to the home, as opposed on an unknown offender. Now, statistics don't make you guilty of anything but those have to play in and have to be part of this. I think perhaps what the doctor may be suggesting and obviously he speaks for himself is we saw a coverup as far as I'm concerned, with the note. I don't think that note was written by someone who actually expected to kidnap JonBenet, carry her away, and get $118,000 ransom. We see other things that were done to the victim the night of the crime, which, to me, suggests a coverup which to me suggests staging, someone trying to make a crime look like something it's not. So perhaps the staging that I see behaviorally might go along with the coverup that he is speaking about medically.
COSSACK: If I understand you correctly, what you are suggesting is that perhaps this child was murdered before that note was written that perhaps that event occurred, and then somebody the murderer, perhaps wrote and planned this elaborate hoax to throw people off. Is that what you are suggesting?
VAN ZANDT: That's what I'm suggesting Roger. The idea that an unknown offender, at least two, perhaps three people would break into the house that night knowing what they were going to do but not have written that note in advance then would be able to find a pad of paper, start to write the note, tear it up, write another 3 page note, take the time to do that. In the note, one reference there is a dozen references we can talk about. One speaks that if the authorities are notified, the victim will be beheaded. That to me suggests that the victim was already dead that the killer already knew the type of ligature damage that was done to the victim and that translated into the note suggesting the victim might be beheaded.
COSSACK: Does that suggest an accidental death?
VAN ZANDT: My opinion Roger is that there was an accidental death that took place on the victim, in the house; and that there was a subsequent cover-up, physical damage, and other things that took place injuries to the victim. So we had an initial accidental injury. We had the death of a victim, and then we had to coverup by subject or subjects whoever were involved in this.
COSSACK: Alright. does that suggest and I want to eliminate, for the purposes of this conversation, the Ramseys? Does it suggest someone who the Ramseys knew? Does it suggest someone within the family?
VAN ZANDT: It suggests someone who knew the house, who knew the family, who knew enough about Mr. Ramsey to make some very interesting remarks in the note. It suggests that the killers either came from that house or had access to that house on a fairly common basis, as opposed to an unknown offender. We can't rule that out because we just don't know. But if we look at statistics, statistically the chances are greater from a behavioral standpoint that the killers either came from that house or had access to the house, as opposed to this unknown offender who just happened to come upon the Ramsey household and carried this off.
COSSACK: Suspicions, theories and media speculations. more than a year has passed since the murder of JonBenet Ramsey, and we have little more than that. There's no trial, there's no suspect in custody, and there's no indictment from a grand jury. Lisa, you've been covering this case from the beginning. There have been allegations of serious police mistakes right from the beginning. List them. what are the alleged police mistakes?
RYCKMAN: Well Roger I think the first and foremost mistake was that they did not secure the crime scene. And that opinion as being their biggest mistake comes from a lot of experts in homicide investigations, not from myself, of course. And as a result of that failure to secure the crime scene, there were a lot of people tramping through the crime scene, possibly contaminating or eliminating evidence. Another mistake that they made subsequent to leaving this crime scene unsecured was to ask John Ramsey, JonBenet's father, to go search his house again, and they allowed him to do this alone that is without a police escort he took two friends with him. This is when he found his daughter's body in the basement room. Of course, his instinct as a father was to go to the child to pick her up, to take the duct tape off her mouth to see if she was still breathing, and then to carry her upstairs out of the dark basement and into the light of the upstairs house and into the arms of her family. Of course, I'm sure your experts can speak to this. All kinds of evidence may have been lost or contaminated to the point where it would make a conviction in this case it would jeopardize it quite possibly.
COSSACK: Lisa, in defense of the police, at that time when they allowed Mr. Ramsey to do all those things they were treating this case as a kidnap rather than a murder. Isn't that true?
RYCKMAN: Well, I think yes of course that was true. But I think that what most police at least outside police investigators say is that it doesn't matter. Kidnapping, murder hey, whatever this is, it's crime, and this was the scene and it should be secured.
COSSACK: Alright. David Schertler, former federal prosecutor, let me throw this case file in your lap now. Where do we go with this?
SCHERTLER: That's the $40,000 dollar question. I think Lisa is absolutely right. This whole you know you have an upstairs bedroom where the child is kidnapped from. You have a ransom note on the first floor. The whole house should have been a crime scene. It should have been roped off. Everybody should have gotten out of the house. And what you would've liked is to have gotten important scientific evidence that could have solved the crime or told you who the killer was. Without that in the case with no witnesses, you don't have a whole lot to go on. You don't have scientific evidence that links anybody with this crime. You have evidence that even though the statistics seem to support the notion that it came from someone inside the home, the evidence doesn't rule out the possibility that it was an outside intruder. Without scientific evidence, somebody talking to you about confessions or statements that the killer might have made to them or without an eyewitness, you have nothing at this point. And I assume that at this point the police have exhausted all those avenues of investigation. Right now, the only thing I see happening in this case to solve it, and it's an unlikely proposition, is that the killer either the killer himself or herself or somebody close to the killer who knows something about the crime would come forward out of consciousness of guilt and tell the police, look, I got to get this off my chest. Here is what happened, or here is what so and so told me about committing this murder. That to me is the only way that you're going to solve this crime.
COSSACK: Alright. now I'm going to come to you and you're the prosecutor in this case, and I just repeat back to you what you've told me. And I say look David we don't have a heck of a lot, but we believe that perhaps there may be some involvement by the family or perhaps a close friend of the family. But we don't have a whole heck of a lot. Do we arrest anybody in hopes that somebody gets behind bars and then cracks or gives up some information?
SCHERTLER: Absolutely not. I think it violates a prosecutor's ethics to do that without significant evidence to establish probable cause that a particular person did it. I don't see anything close to probable cause in this case. All I do see is a lot of speculation, a lot of theories about what might have happened. And some of them, like Clint's, are good theories that make a lot of sense, but there is absolutely no evidence to support it. Even if you said this happened, and it was committed by somebody inside the home; who was it? Was it the father? Was it was the mother? Was it the 11yo brother? We don't know.
COSSACK: Let's go back to Denver for a second. Dr. Krugman you've had the ability to analyze this autopsy report. Was there a time when during your analysis you saw indications that perhaps a taser gun or a stun gun was used on this young girl.
KRUGMAN: No, I didn't.
COSSACK: Was there any marks whatsoever?
KRUGMAN: There were other marks. There were other abrasions noted, and various things noted on the autopsy report. But I think you might need a pathologist to tell you for sure whether or not there was a stun gun. But that speculation has arisen over the last couple of weeks and seems to be filling the airwaves again, and is probably yet another indication of everyone's frustration with the inability to solve this case.
COSSACK: Alright. Clint, is this frustration? I mean, are they just pulling at straws now?
VAN ZANDT: I think right now Roger we're at the point where you start turning the rocks over. We've turned them over once; they got to turn them over a second time. But after a year you know we've got 22,000 known homicide in the U.S. every year only about 65 percent of those are solved. And the scary thing is as we're suggesting right now, without hard, cold forensic evidence that can link an offender to the victim the only think we have is someone raising their hands and says I got to tell you, I feel so bad about what I did. If we don't have that if they had forensic evidence, they would have indicted by now.
COSSACK: There's a new chief investigator in this case, Mark Beckner, who says he wants to reinterview the Ramseys. Why?
VAN ZANDT: He's the new captain of the ship Roger. I don't care what's been done before for the last 367 days it's a brand new investigation as far a he's concerned and he's saying, I want to talk to them. I want to get a feel for them. I want to see the evidence. I want the neighbors re-interviewed.
SCHERTLER: Let me add I think that in terms of investigative tactics that might be the one thing you want to do reinterview potential suspects. If you can get them in inconsistency if somebody may break and say OK let me tell you what happened, that's a real possibility. Now of course, the Ramseys are represented by counsel. I have the feeling that any interviews with the Ramseys are going to be very carefully monitored.
COSSACK: And let me just say even though my cohost Greta Van Susteren is not here today if she were here she would be saying if I were their lawyer I wouldn't let them talk to anybody.

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  9/10/1997 Diane Sawyer
Posted by: jameson245 - 03-04-2017, 05:46 PM - Forum: Mike Bynum - No Replies

SEPTEMBER 10, 1997
Transcript # 97091003-j08 T


ANNOUNCER: PrimeTime -- now from New York, Diane Sawyer.

DIANE SAWYER, ABC News: It is the case that has had us all trying to puzzle out the truth. A magical six-year-old girl found murdered the day after Christmas, 1996. By instinct and experience, a lot of us started to suspect the parents or people close to the family. In this case, those suspicions solidified by leaks from unnamed sources. So PrimeTime decided to see if we could establish on the record some facts about the case. The district attorney in Boulder, Colorado, would not comment publicly to us, and the police would not return our phone calls. However, the Ramseys, for the first time, allowed a camera into their home and provided two people to address questions like this. Before the murder, was there any medical evidence of sexual abuse? And why would John and Patsy Ramsey rush to hire lawyers and refuse to talk to police if they were innocent? Here are their answers.

BEAUTY PAGEANT ANNOUNCER: It's the Ziegfeld Follies. The Ziegfeld Follies! Number 16, JonBenet!

DIANE SAWYER: (voice-over) Week after week, we have studied these pageant videos looking for clues. All these videos from one night in the life of a six-year-old girl who at home looked like this. And through all these months, we have also studied her parents, wondering, did they really act like innocent people? Why would innocent people rush to get a lawyer and refuse to talk to police? This is Mike Bynum, a former prosecutor and close friend of the Ramseys. Since the murder, he has been by their side and is now speaking for the first time.

MICHAEL BYNUM, Ramsey Family Friend: John and Patsy Ramsey are two very, very hurt people, obviously, based on what's happened to them. But in terms of the kind of people they are, they are caring, considerate, kind and very, very, very decent people.

DIANE SAWYER: (on camera) Do you think the Ramseys are capable of murder?

MICHAEL BYNUM: The Ramseys, in my opinion, based on everything I know, are absolutely incapable of murder and incapable of harming that child.

DIANE SAWYER: You're saying there has never, for a moment, been a flicker of even doubt in your mind?

MICHAEL BYNUM: In my mind, that is absolutely correct.

DIANE SAWYER: Because I was wondering if you ever asked them directly, "Did you do it?"

MICHAEL BYNUM: I am not going to get into specific discussions, but let me tell you, no, I never asked that question. I would never ask that question. My faith, my belief and what I've told you is unchanged.

DIANE SAWYER: December 26 -- how did you hear that something had happened?

MICHAEL BYNUM: I had been snowshoeing with my family and friends, and we were...

DIANE SAWYER: (voice-over) When Bynum, who had lost an infant grandchild of his own, learned that JonBenet had been murdered, he rushed to a friend's house, where the Ramseys and their nine-year-old son Burke (ph) had gone to stay.

(on camera) Can you tell me about what you saw when you walked in that door?

MICHAEL BYNUM: I think I can. John and Patsy were there with family and friends, their minister. And just after I got there, everyone was -- sorry --was kneeling in the living room and praying together. And when they got through, I went up and hugged John and -- and then I went over to Patsy. She was sitting on the couch. And I had to help her up and -- and give her a hug. So that was what I found when I got there. Everyone was devastated. It was difficult.

DIANE SAWYER: (voice-over) And there is someone else who was there that night who says Patsy Ramsey had collapsed.

(From taped telephone conversation)

Dr. FRANCESCO (PH) BEUF, JonBenet's Pediatrician: She was just lying on the floor.

DIANE SAWYER: (voice-over) His name is Dr. Francesco Beuf. He was JonBenet's pediatrician. He talked to me by phone about whether Mrs. Ramsey's grief was real.

(From taped telephone conversation)

Dr. FRANCESCO BEUF: Oh, for God's sake, she was as devastated as anyone could be by a terrible loss like that. They called me to provide some tranquilizers for her. She was absolutely shattered by this.

DIANE SAWYER: And Mr. Ramsey?

Dr. FRANCESCO BEUF: He looked absolutely devastated. To me, they were the most appropriate reactions in the world. God knows, I wouldn't know how I'd react if one of my children had been murdered, particularly in such horrible circumstances. He paced and paced and paced. He and I went out for a walk for a while that night. It's the wreckage of two human beings.

DIANE SAWYER: (voice-over) Even so, we were told the Ramseys volunteered to give hair, fingerprint, blood samples. And John Ramsey offered to be formally interviewed by the police if he could do it in the house near his family. Bynum says it didn't happen only because police wanted both parents, and Dr. Beuf said Patsy Ramsey wasn't able to talk.

(From taped telephone conversation)

Dr. FRANCESCO BEUF: I had advised that it was not good to have Patsy there because she was under heavy sedation and would not have been able to function. And then the story came out that the Ramseys had refused to be interviewed by the police. That is just flat wrong. I sat there.

DIANE SAWYER: (on camera) Why did they get a lawyer?

MICHAEL BYNUM: I went, as their friend, to help. And I felt that they should have legal advice -- nothing more, nothing less.

DIANE SAWYER: So you're the reason they got a lawyer?

MICHAEL BYNUM: I'm the one.

DIANE SAWYER: It did not occur to them first?

MICHAEL BYNUM: They certainly never made any mention of it to me. DIANE SAWYER: I'm trying to imagine, if I am in the middle of this agony and my friend says to me, "You better get a lawyer " I think I'd go, "What? What?"


DIANE SAWYER: This horrible thing has happened to my child. There's a note here. I should get a lawyer?

MICHAEL BYNUM: Well, first of all, that was not the words that I used. I told John there were some legal issues that I thought needed to be taken care of. And John just looked at me and said, "Do whatever you think needs to be done," and he and Burke -- he went into a room to talk with Burke and so I did.

DIANE SAWYER: What made you think there were legal issues?

MICHAEL BYNUM: I was a prosecutor. I know how this works. I know where the police attention's going to go, right from the get go.

DIANE SAWYER: (voice-over) And he says that's exactly what happened. By Saturday, two days after the murder that the police were openly hostile. An assistant DA gave him some news.

MICHAEL BYNUM: He said the police are refusing to release JonBenet's body for burial unless John and Patsy give them interviews. I have never heard of anything like that. I said to the DA, "I don't know whether or not this is illegal, but I'm sure it's immoral and unethical." I just was not willing to participate and facilitate or do anything other than to say "no." Not only no, but hell, no, you're not getting an interview. And I did say that.

DIANE SAWYER: Did they authorize you to say that?

MICHAEL BYNUM: John and Patsy? No. Absolutely not. They weren't in the room. They didn't know what was going on. And I wasn't going to bring them in on it. I did it.

DIANE SAWYER: (voice-over) In the end, the body was released. The funeral was in Atlanta. Bynum insists the Ramseys still didn't know what he had told police when they suddenly accepted an invitation to go on CNN.

PATSY RAMSEY (From CNN Tape): If anyone knows anything, please, please help us.

DIANE SAWYER: (on camera) Was it a mistake?

MICHAEL BYNUM: Yes and no. At this point in time, with everything that's happened to them, it's pretty difficult for them to do anything that isn't going to be criticized. If they do something, it's criticized that they did. If they don't, it's criticized that they don't.

DIANE SAWYER: But of all the things that solidified suspicions against the Ramseys, probably the biggest was that four-month delay in granting police a formal interview. Bynum says the Ramseys wanted to talk, but their attorneys insisted that a member of the DA's office be present. Why? He says because police were so hostile and the DA makes the final decision whether the prosecute. He insists that the big holdup was that police waited so long to let the DA's office in.

MICHAEL BYNUM: The primary issue preventing an interview for all that time, despite everything people were told in the media, was the issue of the presence of the DA in there.

DIANE SAWYER: What about this assumption on people's part that if it had been them and their child and they were innocent, they would have said, "I don't care what you say, attorneys, I am going down -- I'm going to -- I'm not going to just give an interview. I'm going to camp out down there to make sure they know everything I know, and that they're on the trail of who did this. Nothing is going to stop me."

MICHAEL BYNUM: I think there's nothing wrong with that approach and that idea. But I want to tell you, for anyone in the circumstance that John and Patsy Ramsey were in, you go ahead and do that and pick up the pieces later because you're going to be shredded. And I know that there are good police. I know there are good police in Boulder, Colorado, but I've also seen it from the prosecution side. I've seen it from the defense side if a focus occurs what that means. And it means they're coming, and you better get ready.

DIANE SAWYER: Innocent or not?

MICHAEL BYNUM: Absolutely. Absolutely.

DIANE SAWYER: Polygraphs -- have they taken a lie detector?

MICHAEL BYNUM: Not to my knowledge.

DIANE SAWYER: Should they? Will they?

MICHAEL BYNUM: Not if I ever have anything to say about it.


MICHAEL BYNUM: Oh, that's -- that's ouija board science, number one. And I will also tell you, to my knowledge, that request has not been made of John and Patsy.

DIANE SAWYER: (voice-over) So what's next? Can a murderer ever be found, since many observers think police let people contaminate the evidence that first day. Eight months later, the Ramsey house is empty. The only reminder that children once lived here, a swingset in the backyard. JonBenet Ramsey is a constant presence on TV, in these photos and that autopsy report, which will certainly be debated for years. Death, it says, from strangulation and a blow to the head. An abrasion on her hymen, which was otherwise intact, some vaginal area blood, some bruising. Some experts believe that sexual assault was staged to confuse police about the motive. Others have speculated something more.

(on camera) As you know, there are people in this country who simply believe that John Ramsey sexually abused his daughter.

MICHAEL BYNUM: This family has been investigated. They have been loving, caring parents. All of the medical records, all of the school records, anyone who's ever been around the family has confirmed it. There is no indication. There is no evidence.

DIANE SAWYER: (voice-over) But what about those reports that JonBenet's pediatrician, Dr. Beuf, saw JonBenet 30 times in three years?

(From taped telephone conversation)

Dr. FRANCESCO BEUF: Before your call, I sat down with her chart and counted. It was 27 times.

DIANE SAWYER: (voice-over) This is the first time Dr. Beuf has gone over his records publicly.

(From taped telephone conversation) And is that unusual to see a child that many times?

Dr. FRANCESCO BEUF: Not with the kinds of problems which this child had. The majority of them were for sinus infections and for colds.

DIANE SAWYER: And by majority you mean?

Dr. FRANCESCO BEUF: Probably 20 of the lot. I counted three in which she'd complained of some pain in urination. And the rest of them were cold, strep throats, sinus infections.

DIANE SAWYER: (voice-over) So many he said, there was some concern about asthma.

(From taped telephone conversation) How many times did you give her a vaginal examination?

Dr. FRANCESCO BEUF: Well, it was five or six times in that three-year period.

DIANE SAWYER: (voice-over) We asked him to specifically review all notes that might pertain. He agreed, citing the frenzy of uninformed speculation. Be warned, these are a doctor's clinical notes about a young patient.

September 1993 -- a call about vaginal redness, possibly associated with recent diarrhea. April 1994 -- a visit about a problem perhaps related to the use of bubble bath, which can be an irritant.

October 1994 -- a routine physical. No problems noted, though some indication of occasional bedwetting. Dr. Beuf says 20 percent to 25 percent of children that age wet the bed.

March 1995 -- abdominal pain and fever. Tests and exam showed no problem.

August 1996 -- another routine physical with a vaginal exam. The doctor said everything checked out as normal. We asked what he made of this number of complaints?

(From taped telephone conversation) Would that be unusual?

Dr. FRANCESCO BEUF: For a child that age, certainly not. They don't wipe themselves very well after they urinate. And it's something which usually is curable by having them take plain water baths or learning to wipe better. But if you have four-year-old kids, you know how hard that is. The amount of vaginitis which I saw on the child was totally consistent with little girls her age.

DIANE SAWYER: If there had been an abrasion involving the hymen, you would have seen it?

Dr. FRANCESCO BEUF: Probably. I can't say absolutely for sure because you don't do a speculum exam on a child that young at least unless it's under anesthesia.

DIANE SAWYER: Did you see in any of these examinations any sign of possible sexual abuse?

Dr. FRANCESCO BEUF: No, and I certainly would have reported it to the social service people if I had. That's something that all of us in pediatrics are very acutely aware of.

DIANE SAWYER: (on camera) And some other notes. Dr. Beuf says he last saw JonBenet Ramsey in November 1996, and that was a checkup for a sinus infection. A couple of other things. Dr. Beuf says he has turned in people he has suspected of physical and sexual abuse in his career, and that he not only looks for physical evidence, but personality changes in the children involved. And he says he saw none of that with JonBenet Ramsey. And PrimeTime consulted other pediatric experts about JonBenet's records, and they agreed with Dr. Beuf's analysis that there was nothing unusual there for a girl her age. When we come back, we will take you to the Ramsey home.

ANNOUNCER: A PrimeTime exclusive. Our cameras take you on an eye- opening walk through the home where JonBenet Ramsey's body was found.

MICHAEL BYNUM: Straight ahead from this landing in the basement is actually the room where JonBenet's body was found.
v ANNOUNCER: A revealing look at the crime scene, when PrimeTime continues after this from our ABC stations.

ANNOUNCER: PrimeTime continues. Once again, Diane Sawyer.

DIANE SAWYER: So what is new this week in the case of JonBenet Ramsey? Well, yet another leak. This one citing a source close to the case saying that the piece of wood used in the strangulation came from one of Mrs. Ramsey's paint brushes. But a source in the DA's office told us they've heard nothing about such a discovery. At the same time, members of the Boulder police and DA's office have just returned from Quantico, Virginia, where they reviewed their evidence with FBI experts. And the Ramseys have continued their public campaign asking for clues in the case.

PATSY RAMSEY: I beg you to call us.

LARRY KING, Talk Show Host: With us on the phone, she has called in, is Patsy Ramsey.

DIANE SAWYER: (on camera) There's a real spin campaign going on here. This big publicity machine is roaring out for the Ramseys. Is that what's happening? Why now? Why all this now?

MICHAEL BYNUM: Well to the extent -- to the extent there's a spin machine and public pressure being brought, it is directed at getting information that will lead to discovery of the killer of JonBenet. That is the purpose.

DIANE SAWYER: One of the questions that's been raised is that this whole publicity, media blitz, of which we are presumably a part, is in anticipation of something serious coming out of Quantico.

MICHAEL BYNUM: That really doesn't make any sense. Whatever the police and the people at Quantico decide, it's going to happen as a decision that they make.

DIANE SAWYER: Whom do the Ramseys think killed their daughter? MICHAEL BYNUM: They don't know.

DIANE SAWYER: Do they have a suspicion? Do they have theories?

MICHAEL BYNUM: I guess it would be more appropriate to say leads that they have passed on, which they did some time ago, to the police and also to their investigators.

DIANE SAWYER: Are these real leads? Are they serious leads?

MICHAEL BYNUM: Oh, yes, very much so. We know absolutely that there's the evidence of an intruder. But that information, interestingly enough, hasn't been leaked.

DIANE SAWYER: Bynum believes most of the leaks are intended the hurt the Ramseys and said he would show us the house to address errors in published reports. He pointed out it's a house with a lot of entrances. He says the Ramseys didn't always turn on the alarm and lot of the locks are simple push buttons, not deadbolts. And though it's been called a mansion, the rooms are large, but not huge, many of them added on by the Ramseys. Bynum particularly wanted to point out a window in the basement because he said press reports have it wrong.

MICHAEL BYNUM: The basement window. People have told that there's no way to get in or out of there.

DIANE SAWYER: (voice-over) He said several months before the murder, John Ramsey broke a window here because he had locked himself out. One pane was still broken the night of the murder, though this is a substitute window. Police have the original.

MICHAEL BYNUM: As you can see, this window opens to an opening that is, as I showed you earlier, easy enough to get in and out of for a person at least my size -- 5'10", 175. So, and then the grate up above, I'll show that to you as well. That's -- that grate was also taken, and the new grate's been put up there, and I had that locked so it's no longer movable.

DIANE SAWYER: But it was a loose grate?

MICHAEL BYNUM: It was a loose grate, yes.

DIANE SAWYER: And to get up to the window?

MICHAEL BYNUM: You can either hoist yourself up or step on an object such as this suitcase. And one of this nature was down here.

DIANE SAWYER: And you think you could get out it without leaving any fabrics of your clothes or any skin?

MICHAEL BYNUM: Well, I don't know what you can or cannot do. I just know this is a rather easy means of access to the home, as are a number of the other locations that I have showed you.

DIANE SAWYER: (voice-over) And where was everyone sleeping that night?

(on camera) So this is where the bed was?

MICHAEL BYNUM: That's correct.

DIANE SAWYER: (voice-over) Patsy and John Ramsey's bed was there at the far end of their room, a converted attic. To get to their daughter's bedroom, they had to walk this way, then down the stairs to the second floor. Burke's bedroom is around the corner. JonBenet's, right here.

(on camera) And there's a terrace. I didn't know there was a terrace here.

MICHAEL BYNUM: The terrace is off of her bedroom. And then the door leading out onto the terrace.

DIANE SAWYER: (voice-over) This is that terrace from the outside. JonBenet's killer, whoever it was, presumably came into this bedroom, then took her across the small hall down the winding staircase where Patsy Ramsey would later say she had found the ransom note.

(on camera) This is the stairs down into the kitchen.

(voice-over) On the first floor, there are two options to reach the door to the basement -- straight through the entrance foyer or straight through the kitchen.

MICHAEL BYNUM: And then straight through the kitchen to this hallway, which is the entry to the basement.

DIANE SAWYER: Down these stairs?

MICHAEL BYNUM: Yep. Want to go down?


MICHAEL BYNUM: OK. When you come down into the basement and turn to your right...

DIANE SAWYER: (voice-over) We have all imagined this place so many times. To the right, that room with the broken window pane and laundry rooms. And straight ahead?

MICHAEL BYNUM: Straight ahead from this landing is the basement is actually the room where JonBenet's body was found.

DIANE SAWYER: (voice-over) It is a windowless room of concrete where some household supplies and golf clubs were said to have been stored. There used to be a door on it, with a small latch at the top, but police took it as evidence. The room is not as hidden as some press reports suggest. Yet, still to find your way here.

(on camera) Given the layout of the house, then, doesn't it almost have to be someone who at least knew, that had a kind of map in their head of the house?

MICHAEL BYNUM: Well, I don't know that for sure. That's certainly a possibility. I don't think that that house is one that is too difficult to be described, at least in terms of getting in and around the house. DIANE SAWYER: (voice-over) Bynum says a lot of people who had worked for the Ramseys had keys. He says on a Christmas tour two years ago 2,000 people passed through the house. And there were also contractors and construction workers. But is there real evidence of an intruder?

(on camera) What is the evidence that there's an intruder? There's no fiber sample. There's no DNA. There's no evidence of forced entry.

MICHAEL BYNUM: Well, you know more about the evidence apparently than I do. I don't think it's known what there is or is not. I think there are things in terms of the actions of this individual in that house, the note that was left, that really has been very, very secret from the public.

DIANE SAWYER: Can you tell me anything more about what you mean by "actions of that person in the house?"

MICHAEL BYNUM: No, I cannot. No I will not. I suppose I can, but I won't.

DIANE SAWYER: (on camera) Now, last January, the DA's office said there remains a real possibility that the murder was committed by an intruder. We called this week to see if the DA would still say that on record. We received no response. And again, the police would not return our calls.

DIANE SAWYER: Two things have probably caused the most speculation about JonBenet Ramsey's mother, Patsy. First, the ransom note.

(voice-over) Reportedly John Ramsey's handwriting has been ruled out, while hers cannot be, though the Ramseys have contradicting experts of their own.

(on camera) The second is general unease about her role in sending a little girl into the beauty pageants -- nine in two years. JonBenet's pediatrician told us the mother and daughter relationship was extremely loving, but tabloids have been on a constant search for signs of maternal control and temper.

(voice-over) This was a pageant in 1996. A bruise noted on JonBenet's arm. A friend of the family's said a hamster cage had fallen on her.

(From taped telephone conversation) Did you see this bruise?

Dr. FRANCESCO BEUF: No, I didn't.

DIANE SAWYER: (voice-over) Once again, Dr. Francesco Beuf, JonBenet's pediatrician, who says in 27 visits over three years, the only injuries he saw were the usual childhood accidents. His notes from October 1994.

(From taped telephone conversation)

Dr. FRANCESCO BEUF: Has good appetite. Doesn't like much variety. Amount of TV she watches. Very cooperative behavior. Loves to draw. Scar on her check from being hit with a golf club. And if a parent had been involved in that, then we certainly would have jumped on the situation. I did not write down who had been the hitter.

DIANE SAWYER: (voice-over) We're told it was a play accident with brother Burke. In 1995, his notes record a serious fall at a grocery store. A year after that, a finger hurt. Beuf indicated child abuse was not even a remote suspicion.


DIANE SAWYER: (voice-over) But what about the beauty pageant videos that, for so many, fueled distrust of the parents?

(on camera) Nothing about it troubles you?

MICHAEL BYNUM: No. It's -- it's -- I've raised four boys who've played football and basketball and baseball and probably spent more time and effort and devotion and everything else to that than JonBenet ever did to the beauty pageants.

DIANE SAWYER: Maybe this is the question. Is she sexualized in some way in these pictures, and could that have created some kind of lure for someone, a pedophile, someone to hurt her?

DIANE SAWYER: (voice-over) A local art exhibit after the murder bore the title "Daddy's Little Hooker." Bynum read us a letter that John Ramsey wrote to the student artist.

MICHAEL BYNUM: "Dear Paul, I am writing this letter to you deeply hurt by how you have portrayed by daughter, JonBenet. We, as a family, have lost one of the most precious things in our lives, and it is difficult to imagine that we will ever have joy in our lives again. What you have incorrectly portrayed is a very small part of JonBenet's life. It was an activity that she and her mother enjoyed doing together, and she was a very competitive spirit. There was much more to her life. She was very religious. Did very well in school. Loved to go to the beach, and all the other things a normal six-year-old normally enjoys. You are young, and I can forgive you for what you have done."

DIANE SAWYER: (voice-over) He said he hoped the young man would learn that others can be hurt by his actions.

MICHAEL BYNUM: "Sincerely yours, John B. Ramsey."

DIANE SAWYER: (on camera) You're a former prosecutor. Do you think this case will ever be solved?

MICHAEL BYNUM: I do think the case will be solved. I'm just hopeful that the people the people who want to pay attention to this and be fair will do just that.

DIANE SAWYER: (on camera) The Ramsey case continues. And of course, we asked the Ramseys for an interview and were told they will not be speaking about the details of the case at this time.

DIANE SAWYER: Don't forget Nightline later. I'm Diane Sawyer. Good night, Sam.


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  open letter to Ramseys
Posted by: jameson245 - 03-04-2017, 05:42 PM - Forum: Peter Boyles - No Replies


The brutal murder of your beautiful daughter JonBenét has touched this nation in a way I haven't witnessed in my 25-year career. Our obsession is not with you, it is with finding justice.

It has been over seven months and I am angered by your behavior in hiring investigators, experts and lawyers in what appears to me to be an effort to protect your interest rather than to find the killer.

Please read the following carefully:

First, the experts tell me that your published "profile" of the killer is laughable.

Second, you are displaying certain characteristics that are totally opposite those of most victim parents, so we must look at the entirety of your behavior.

You claim the killer was likely to have exhibited certain behavior. You ask if we, the public, know someone who was experiencing one of the following before JonBenét was killed:

Conflict with a female
Conflict with family
Financial stress
Legal problems
Employment problems

We all know someone experiencing one or more of those situations. Your list describes the average American.

Your behavior over the past seven months has not elicited compassion or empathy, it has elicited suspicion and mistrust. For example:

The hiring of a public relations firm.

The hiring of separate teams of lawyers.

Your unwillingness to take separate lie detector tests administered by the Boulder Police Department.

Your substantial delay before you agreed to talk to police and then only when a long list of bizarre conditions had been met.

Your inconsistent theories on who killed JonBenét.

Your quick dismissal of the foreign terrorist as a suspect with no explanation.

Your assertion on CNN that Boulder was unsafe.

Your current theory that an acquaintance of the family suffering from marital, financial or employment problems killed JonBenét.

Your most recent flyer claims the killer continues to roam the streets of select Boulder neighborhoods.

Your continued tactic of talking only to handpicked members of the media and your unwillingness to engage in an unrestricted interview with an objective journalist, such as Ted Koppel.
Fred Goldman's behavior exemplifies the true victim parent of a child who has been murdered. You, on the other hand, have led Colorado and the nation on a seven month, low speed, white Bronco chase.

If you wish to respond to my letter you may call me collect anytime at (303)825-8255 or you may FAX me at (303)825-3299.


Peter Boyles

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  Kim Ballard
Posted by: jameson245 - 03-04-2017, 05:37 PM - Forum: Names to remember - Replies (9)

Geraldo Rivera - Monday, May 12, 1997

4 . "May 12th transcript"
Posted by jams on Nov-07-00 at 00:16 AM (EST)

Partial transcript - - show covered other topics...

RIVERA: Oh, shush--with Kim Ballard, the purported mistress of John Ramsey. I--I found out about her awhile ago, didn't go with it because she wouldn't take a polygraph for me, but I trust Carol's reporting and Carol has talked to her. Before I talk to Carol, do you have these clips ready? OK, you have har--oh, she talked to "Hard Copy." OK. Roll "Hard Copy."

(Excerpt from "Hard Copy")

Ms. KIM BALLARD (Alleged Mistress of John Ramsey): He had said Southern belle, blonde, petite. He was someone to fill a void in a period of my life when I was alone, and I think I was doing the same for him, filling some sort of need.

Staying in nice hotels. We had--went to nice restaurants. He bought me nice clothes.

Unidentified Reporter: Cash, too?

Ms. BALLARD: Gave me cash, yes.

Reporter: Hundreds? Thousands?

Ms. BALLARD: Maybe $ 1,000.

(End of excerpt)

RIVERA: We could have called tonight's program A Tale of Two Ads. In the initial part of that interview, she was talking about how she met John Ramsey. Apparently, Carol, they first met through a personals advertisement?

Ms. McKINLEY: Yeah. According to Kim Ballard, they met through an advertisement she put in the USA Today in the personal ads. And, you know, you have to wonder after four and a half months since the child was killed, why does she come forward? I mean, that's the journalistic perspective of all this. What is up with this? It seems to always happen in these kinds of stories; someone always comes out and then they say they had an affair and knew someone before and...

RIVERA: Do you believe her?

Ms. McKINLEY: So--you know what? I--if I said one way or another, it would--it would give too much away and I--I--you know, I'll let you guys decide that for yourselves. But basically she just came out and said the reason she waited this long to come forward--and supposedly this affair she had with John Ramsey was back in November '94 to April '95, which is when Patsy Ramsey apparently had her ovarian cancer troubles.

RIVERA: Cancer--right. Right.

Ms. McKINLEY: But she says the reason she waited so long is because she would have kept silent, but the Globe actually used her name and she wanted to tell her story and she said the Globe had printed a bunch of lies about her, and so she wants to come forward and she says she hasn't taken any money.

RIVERA: This is--this is interesting. Part C--Tape C from Carol's interview.

Tell me when you have that keyed up because that, to me, is--OK. Let's roll--let me set it up. This is the only--as far as I can see from all the interviews, this is what brings it back to the--to the case, to the investigation. Roll Tape C.

(Excerpt from interview)

Ms. BALLARD: I met him in 1994, and if it hadn't of been, you know, for the Globe printing my name, I would've stayed a secret, like I always had been. But since it was printed, and also, their investigators--their own investigators, Ellis Armistead and Associates have been calling me daily, at least once a day.

The only thing I can think of is that maybe their own investigators are putting together a profile, the way the FBI will do, of a killer, because they just called and fir--at first they wanted to know everything about the relationship. And then it was just calls every day: Who are you talking to? Are you going to talk with anyone? Has the police contacted you? Are you going to talk with them?--just keeping up with me every day.

(End of excerpt)

RIVERA: Even mistresses tell the truth, Carol.

Ms. McKINLEY: Well, you know, this has nothing to do with the murder and that's what you have to remember. The only thing it has...

RIVERA: Well, how about the fact that her--that...

Ms. McKINLEY: ...to do with is, if--if this, indeed, happened, the character of John Ramsey.

RIVERA: It has to do with character, but if...

Mr. diGENOVA: Excuse me.

RIVERA: ...his lawyers or investigators are calling...

Ms. McKINLEY: Yeah, and if they're calling trying to find out who she's--when she's going to talk.

Here's another interesting segment that came in the interview later.

RIVERA: All right. Joe--Joe, put down the cigar for a minute. Let's listen to Carol. Go ahead.

Mr. diGENOVA: I'm--I'm listening.

RIVERA: All right. Go ahead, Carol.

Ms. McKINLEY: Well, one of the things she said...

RIVERA: He wields that like a lethal weapon. OK.

Ms. McKINLEY: ...(unintelligible) she was--she was going to come out at the beginning of May and go on the show in Philadelphia. And what she said was the day before she was to take her flight, she got a call, and the person on the other line, which was a man, told her if she talked about John Ramsey, the same thing that happened to JonBenet would happen to her.


Ms. McKINLEY: And then this person hung up. So she's pretty nervous and--and she's scared now and whether this is true or not, it's all just one more strange...

RIVERA: It is.

Ms. McKINLEY: ...twist, as Bill Ritter said a little while ago in this--in this bizarre story.

RIVERA: OK. Before--before Joe and Larry tear it apart, let me merely suggest to you folks that--remembering the Simpson saga--remember how morbidly fascinated we were with all of these tangential, even extra legal characters that came to play a part in that--in that drama? So we'll comment on that. Stay tuned; be right back.


RIVERA: The big news in the JonBenet case, the fact that the Boulder DA sanctioned the family's ad in the local newspaper over the weekend; an adult male approaching your young children'--if you have any information, please call the Crime Stopper number. That's the big news. The kind of subtext here, an alleged mistress of John Bennett Ramsey's surfacing, talking about how he was a controlling personality.

I guess you asked her whether she thought they were involved in the case, did you not, Carol?

Ms. McKINLEY: Yeah, we asked her if--if, in her gut, if she thought they might be involved, and she said that she didn't know but that she believed that--that they could be. She had a gut feeling that they were.

RIVERA: She didn't talk about anything about him--Larry is rolling his eyes.

Ms. McKINLEY: She said she had a--she said she felt he had a temper, but there was one thing--there was kind of an antenna that went up because she said she felt he had a temper because when they were out to dinner she ordered decaf and he sighed.

POZNER: Ah, there it is.

Ms. McKINLEY: To me, that doesn't mean he has a temper. It just might mean that he wants her to stay up.

POZNER: ...(Unintelligible).

Ms. McKINLEY: I don't know what, but--you know, to commit to a relationship.

RIVERA: I side with they didn't have time to ...(unintelligible).

POZNER: Wait. Wait. Wait. Where's our FBI profiler to tell us...

RIVERA: OK. Joe...

POZNER: ...the, you know...

RIVERA: ...Joe first, then Larry. I've got to--I'm going to sandwich (unintelligible) due process.

Mr. diGENOVA: All right. Let me just--let me just say this. If one were looking at this story--and let's just assume for the sake of argument that this woman is telling the truth.

RIVERA: Mm-hmm.

Mr. diGENOVA: Let's assume that--that--that John Ramsey, while his wife is undergoing treatment for cancer...

RIVERA: Right.

Mr. diGENOVA: ...decides to go to a personal column to find someone to have a liaison with.

RIVERA: Right.

Mr. diGENOVA: It's weird. It's...

RIVERA: It is weird.

Mr. diGENOVA: ...almost as weird as having your child dress up like an adult when she's very, very small and pretending that that is insignificant.

RIVERA: So there, Larry Pozner.

POZNER: Oh, please.

RIVERA: So there.

POZNER: Prosecution should be based on sterner stuff than this.

RIVERA: It's not about the prosecution.

POZNER: Come on. Come on.

RIVERA: It's about the investigation.

POZNER: What investigation?

RIVERA: The character, the personality...

POZNER: What? The--tell me where...

RIVERA: ...the personal habits.

POZNER: ...this supposed mistress leads to. I--now we're going to hear somebody say that men who have affairs are more likely to be homicidal? Come on. Where...

RIVERA: How does this jive...

POZNER: Where's the evidence?

RIVERA: How does this jive with John Bennett Ramsey, supporting father and husband, who sat alongside Patsy and tearfully told the nation that they didn't do it and they were going to get the bastard who did, etc., etc.?

POZNER: If it's true, if he had the affair, I suspect he's...

RIVERA: When his wife was under treatment of cancer.

POZNER: ...I suspect he's not the first male to have an affair...

RIVERA: Oh, well...

POZNER: ...and I don't think it shows anything about whether he is a killer. And--and wait a second. Where'd this notion come from that he's the one dressing up JonBenet? It was his wife who participated...

RIVERA: Well...

POZNER: ...in beauty pageants.

Mr. diGENOVA: Did he stop it?

POZNER: Oh, so he's going to say to his wife...

RIVERA: John was...

POZNER: ...I forbid you to put...

RIVERA: John was present at many of those. Mr. District Attorney.

Mr. diGENOVA: Did he stop it?

RIVERA: Mis--no, he did not. Mr. District Attorney.

Mr. RITTER: You know, again, this is a--a very bizarre sort of sidelight here. It is the sideshow. For a prosecutor, you have to maintain your focus on the details of the investigation that someday may be admissible in trial in a court of law, and you can get a little bit away from that, trying to decide different kinds of character issues. But this is of no help or hindrance to the prosecution. This is just something, that's purely, I think, entertaining.

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  3/31/1997 Geraldo
Posted by: jameson245 - 03-04-2017, 05:31 PM - Forum: ugh - Judianne Densen-Gerber and Marilyn van Derber Atler - No Replies

Geraldo Rivera Show - Monday, March 31, 1997

This transcript was found on the old Boulder News Forum Archive and was copied "as is" from the forum posting.

* Interview: JonBenet Ramsey: investigating Mom; panelists discuss Patsy Ramsey's possible involvement in the murder of her daughter
7499 Words
44648 Characters
Investigative News Group
Burrelle's Information Services
HOST: Geraldo Rivera

(Excerpt from beauty pageant)

GERALDO RIVERA: That is the haunting voice of the innocent little child who cries out from her grave for justice. But are we any closer to an arrest in the JonBenet Ramsey case? We will talk with several experts whose analysis of the evidence points in a startling direction. Our ongoing investigation of the Ramsey murder poses the question: Did the mother have anything to do with it? Next GERALDO RIVERA SHOW.

(Excerpt from beauty pageant)

RIVERA: It is painful enough to watch the video of JonBenet Ramsey dancing and posing. It is that much harder to listen to this little beauty queen, hear her voice. It seems almost as if she is still around, vibrant and just as adorable as she was when this video was taken.

It has been, ladies and gentlemen, just over three months since her brutal murder. Who did it and what in the world is taking so long to resolve this terrible mystery?

That's the main question we'll be asking over the course of this hour, but our very specific focus is much more narrow. Here's the question: Could it have been her mother? Could Patsy Ramsey have played some terrible role in taking the life of her precious daughter, or at least in covering up the crime?

Today--two exclusives. First, I'd like you to meet an old friend of mine. This is the forensic psychiatrist Dr. Judianne Densen-Gerber, but we have known each other for decades.

Dr. JUDIANNE DENSEN-GERBER (JD, MD, Forensic Psychiatrist): Forty years.

RIVERA: Imagine. She is here today with never-before-seen video of little JonBenet. That video Dr. Densen-Gerber has carefully studied, scrutinized and analyzed. You know how I cherish your opinion and--and hold it in such high regard. My first question is having st--I--I tell you what. Before I get specific, give me a general overview of what you have discerned.

Dr. DENSEN-GERBER: Well, first I'd like to just comment on what you showed because it's the only patriotic beauty contest--child beauty contest singing that. And when I had reviewed about five hours, Geraldo, of the tapes and she sang "God Bless America," and she said, `land of the free,' I said, `The land of the enslaved children.' And my feeling very strong...

RIVERA: And I--land of the enslaved children. Isn't it true?

Dr. DENSEN-GERBER: And my first reaction is, one, we cry out certainly to catch the person who did--was the perpetrator or who covered up the perpetration. But what about all the other children? I brought you this, which I--first time I've ever seen--from Connecticut which advertises another beauty contest.

RIVERA: Mm-hmm.

Dr. DENSEN-GERBER: And I have been talking--I wrote the child pornography and sexploitation laws for Gayle Kil--Kilde all the way back in 1978...

RIVERA: Mm-hmm.

Dr. DENSEN-GERBER: ...which passed. We didn't put in beauty contests. We didn't even know about them.

RIVERA: Do you think that these contests, per se, are abuse?

Dr. DENSEN-GERBER: Well, like this they are. The first one I studied was one Birch Bayh asked me to study, which was in Naked City, Indiana, and a very ticklish question, literally, because Indiana was the first state to have nudist camps. And these had children under 15 posing, and anybody who could pay $15 could take as many pictures of them as they wanted. And it took us a while to close it down, but we did. This is pretty much the same kind of thing.

RIVERA: Is there any indication, in terms of that tape, that this child was previously the victim of child abuse?

Dr. DENSEN-GERBER: Oh, definitely, and I think you've shown some of them on prior shows, in that you can't look at these tapes and not see that she has bruises. She has a very big bruise during one time in her antec--what we call the antecubital fossa, the same place people shoot heroin. There's another time where one of her eyes when she's being crowned is barely able to be opened. And furthermore, there is even the fact that she--when she is crowned in one contest, she's disoriented and she can't find her way off the stage, and this is not the first contest. So I think that very much she was sort of in a trance or in a mesmerized state when she did this because, really, she was j--a puppet. She wasn't a--her person--her own person.

RIVERA: Was she the puppet of her mother?

Dr. DENSEN-GERBER: Well, for the shows definitely. There is no question that I think there was a symbiotic relationship between the mother and child. This mother had been Miss West Virginia. I believe her sister was also Miss West Virginia and they didn't make Miss America. And certain people have told me that when this baby was just born the mother said, `This is my future Miss America.' So she was fulfilling a long-term dream of the mother to make it.

RIVERA: Is there any indication in your analysis, as you scrutinize, as you investigate, that the mother could have played any role in this?

Dr. DENSEN-GERBER: Well, there is no reason--let me put it the other way--there's no reason to suspect the father any more than the mother.

RIVERA: What is there, if anything, in what you have analyzed in this case that would indicate any culpability or involvement by the mother, Patsy Ramsey?

Dr. DENSEN-GERBER: Well, the first thing is definitely the bruises, the eye that didn't open, the disorientation at the beauty contest. To the best of my knowledge, the father never went with her. I mean, it was the mother who went with her. So it couldn't be the father at least being the physical abuser of the child. In addition, the 30...

RIVERA: That's interesting. I'd not--I'd not thought that one through, but y--of course, that's logical.

Dr. DENSEN-GERBER: ..the 30--the 30 visits to the pediatrician, the mother took her to. What did she go to the pediatrician 30 times in two years for? Looking at the autopsy report, with the chronic and old vaginitis or inflammation, I have to assume that that had to be told sometime to the mother. She must have had a discharge. I mean, she was abused for probably two and a half to three years.

RIVERA: What would have been the motive that night?

Dr. DENSEN-GERBER: There are many possible motives. Either that the child--which has also been said--did not want to go to the January 5th Las Vegas or--and I've asked for the curriculum...

RIVERA: That would be--What's that?--about...

Dr. DENSEN-GERBER: Two weeks.

RIVERA: ...two weeks--just under two weeks later, after the homicide.

Dr. DENSEN-GERBER: It's under two weeks. Or it could easily have been that the child, in school--and I've asked for the curriculum from that first grade--could have been studying good and bad touching and she could have easily said, `I'm not going to do this anymore,' or `I'm going to tell someone.'

There's another thing which I learned from your associate that you had one of her friends on, and this friend said that Patsy loved her daughter very, very much, but she was always concerned that she go to the bathroom, urinate before--and I think this was on your show--before they went anywhere. Well, it's strange--it's--when you talk `went anywhere'--it's a little sick joke--before she went to heaven, I have to say. The fascinating thing in the autopsy that confused me from the very beginning is she had an empty bladder. So she had to be k--killed within five minutes after she went to the potty.

RIVERA: Meaning what?

Dr. DENSEN-GERBER: Meaning that someone took her to the potty. It wasn't a death throes, death agony. So some--now to me, it's the strangest thing in the world for a perpetrator to take a child to the potty right before you kill the child. In addition, whoever killed the child, I feel, did not have much strength because the blows to the head did not fracture anything. It was a contrecoup concussion.

But second of all, if a man becomes enraged and it's a small child or a woman, he'll just put his hands around her and crack the cricoid. This person had to take long, thin strings, put ligatures--put it around the neck and even take a piece of wood to twist it tight enough to kill her.

In addition, the child appears to have been dragged naked downstairs because she has a--bruises all over her back and her thighs. So I would say, I assume, since the father picked the child up immediately upon seeing her dead in the basement, he would have picked her up. And if you could pick her up, you'd put her in a car and you'd throw her in the woods, if you'd done this thing. So it appears to me the person was not strong enough to pick the child up or take it. That doesn't mean it has to be the mother, but it does mean that it could be the mother just as easily as the father.

RIVERA: Here is our plan, ladies and gentlemen: Aside from continuing our fascinating discussion with Dr. Judianne Densen-Gerber, we'll be speaking with a former Miss America who was herself abused as a child and get her take on--on this terrible case. We'll talk to a reporter who has the very latest and some exclusive photographs. And we'll talk to a handwriting expert--a renowned forensic handwriting expert who will give us her take on what the--that evidence--the handwriting--physical evidence has so far revealed. Our general title--we're investigating the death of the child. Our specific focus, though, is Investigating Mom. JonBenet Ramsey continues right after this.

Ms. MARILYN VAN DERBER ATLER (Former Miss America Who Was Sexually Abused By Her Father): (From upcoming segment) ...not crying but close to it and she said, `You said something that hurt me very badly today.' And I said, `I'm sorry, Mother. Tell me--tell me what it is and I'll try not to say it again.' And she said, `You said your father pried you open...'


(Excerpts from 02/26/97)

Dr. CYRIL WECHT (Pathologist): Do I believe it was accidental in the sense that it was not an intent, initially, to kill this girl? Yes, very much so. And with regard to the sexual business, too--chronic, acute--the fact of the matter is there is no evidence of a brutal sexual assault on this girl. It was a careful situation so as not to leave any injuries.

Ms. JERALYN MERRITT (Criminal Defense Attorney): The pediatrician of this child m--met this child many, many times over the last couple of years. He says there was no prior sexual abuse, no evidence of it. And he also says that he would have known it if there was. And he saw this child on a regular basis, and I think we have to give some credence to that because, with all due respect to Dr. Wecht, he hasn't spoken to the pediatrician as far as I know and he hasn't met the child.

(End of excerpts)

RIVERA: The debate on location in Boulder, Colorado, between Dr. Cyril Wecht, on the one hand, the noted forensic pathologist, and two of the local criminal defense attorneys, Jeralyn Merritt and Larry Pozner.

Let's go right now to Tony Frost, the editor of the Globe, the controversial tabloid that has, though, broken some exclusive ground in its coverage of this troubling case.

Tony, welcome aboard.

Mr. TONY FROST (Editor, Globe Magazine): Hi, Geraldo.

RIVERA: Tony joins us via satellite from the Globe headquarters in--in Florida. What city in--in Florida are you?

Mr. FROST: Boca Raton.

RIVERA: Boca Raton, OK.

Mr. FROST: That's right.

RIVERA: Before I get to what's new, I was away last week and in looking at your edition last week, Tony, you had some photographs here--Joel, follow me--that I want you to tell me the significance of as we go through them. First of all, you have a photograph inside what you call the `death mansion,' the child's bedroom...

Mr. FROST: Yeah.

RIVERA: ...I'd not seen the picture--footprints indicated here near the bed. What's the significance, Tony?

Mr. FROST: Well, this is where the crime started, Geraldo, in JonBenet's pink-painted bedroom. And we see that the police cut into the carpet to take away samples of carpet. And there's two squares there, and that we believe--or we're told by our sources, police found fibers, possible signs of footprints. Now between the bed they took a--between JonBenet's bed and a spare bed, they took another square of carpet. This is where they initially thought there could be semen stains. This is where a fluid was found.

RIVERA: And here, her dresser. You show her little dresser with her--her little, you know, crown and whatever.

Mr. FROST: Sure.

RIVERA: What's the significance of this photo?

Mr. FROST: The significance of that is the experts we showed these photographs to--we showed them to five experts, all--all top in their field and Cyril Wecht was one of them--and they made the point that this was a very neatly kept dresser, including items like JonBenet's earrings, her tiara, her bracelets. And it was all neatly kept. Now--now that shows that there wasn't a struggle because if there had been a struggle, the odds are, say the experts, she would have knocked the dresser top and knocked some of these items off.

RIVERA: All right. A square cut out; you say semen stains. Now, Judianne, they may have found semen. It might not have had sperm in it, indicating...

Mr. FROST: That's right.

RIVERA: ...perhaps the donor was a man with a vasectomy. I don't know...

Dr. DENSEN-GERBER: I've asked for that, too. Whether...

Mr. FROST: That's right.

RIVERA: I don't know if John Ramsey had a vasectomy...

Dr. DENSEN-GERBER: I've asked that question.

RIVERA: ...or not, but go ahead, Tony. What about this?

Mr. FROST: The--the--the--the initial information that we had from our sources was that square was cut out because--because forensic investigators believed they had found a semen stain. That may not be the case, but that's what--one of the objects that's being tested at the laboratories at...

RIVERA: At Cellmark Diagnostic in Maryland...

Mr. FROST: Yeah.

RIVERA: ...this footprint in the--in the child's bathroom, I guess.

Mr. FROST: Yeah. Now the other thing we have is there was anoth--there was another square taken just inside the doorway of--o--of JonBenet's bedroom, and we traced the killer's steps that night from--from the bed where the crime took place--and this is where most experts believe she was killed, that she was choked on her bed. And then the killer dragged her, or carried her--part carried, part dragged down the spiral staircase. You can see do...

RIVERA: Down here?

Mr. FROST: ...do--down the--down the staircase. You can see that it's been dusted for fingerprints as has the--the outside of her door dusted for fingerprints.

RIVERA: OK, let me flip the page.

Mr. FROST: Now two--two more pages. We see the door to the cellar at the bottom of the spiral stair--at the bottom of the staircase, and then we go into the basement and we see the golf clubs--John--John Ramsey's mono--monog--monogrammed golf bag, another set of clubs, presumably Patsy's, beside it. And on the floor, traces of a red substance. This, we're told, is luminol, which is a chemical used to bring up bloodstains on--on--on floors--flooring and carpets. So...

RIVERA: OK. And here, the final photograph.

Mr. FROST: Her final resting place, where her body was dumped.

RIVERA: In the cold, dark cellar. Her body...

Mr. FROST: This is--this is an--this is an annex to the basement through--through this door here. Now initially, when the--when--when police came--a--and--this room was not searched. The door was jammed; it wasn't opened. And this is where John Ramsey, eight hours later--after the police were first called, this is where John Ramsey found JonBenet's bound body, ripped off the duct tape and took her upstairs and placed her un--beneath the Christmas tree.

RIVERA: All right, Tony, tell us, if you can, what's new? You've just put next week's edition to bed. What's in it?

Mr. FROST: We--we have more--further evidence here in the latest issue, Geraldo, more--more photos--five more photos which show a false lead that--that--that police believe was the--deliberately set in the basement. It's a window that was left ajar and police examined all around it and they came to the conclusion that no one came in or out of that window. They believe the killer opened it to--to mislead investigators.

RIVERA: And remember, folks, no footprints in the snow outside...

Mr. FROST: That's right.

RIVERA: ...no sign at all of forcible entry.

Mr. FROST: N--no. The other interesting thing, Geraldo, is that we're told police sources believe the killer wiped himself down and possibly wiped down JonBenet's body.

RIVERA: Himself or herself.

Mr. FROST: That's right. And--an--an--and we have the basement toilet which was ripped apart. The plumbing was taken to pieces by the investigators looking for traces of--o--of--of the fiber or material that--that was used to wipe--wipe JonBenet down and used--and--and--and the killer himself wiped himself down.

RIVERA: OK. Tony, thanks.

Mr. FROST: Sure.

RIVERA: Ladies and gentlemen, Marilyn Van Derber Atler knows a lot about what it feels like to be exploited as a child. She also knows what it feels like to be horribly abused by her own family. Her father, ladies and gentlemen, abused her in a sexual and emotional and--and mental way between the ages, I think, of five and 18 years old. She is Miss America 1958, and she knows of what she speaks. And we'll hear from Marilyn right after this.

We're Investigating Mom.


RIVERA: Here she is, Miss America, Marilyn Van Derber Atler, 1958. And as she talked there and paraded in front of all of us, what we didn't know is that she had a deep, dark and terrible secret. Her father, a prestigious man in the community, a wealthy man, a popular man, had abused her for 13 years.

When you see the video now--first of all, how old were you?

Ms. ATLER: Twenty.

RIVERA: So two years had gone by, more or less. First of all, welcome.

Ms. ATLER: Thank you.

RIVERA: Thank you for being here.

Ms. ATLER: Thank you for the work you do.

RIVERA: She's become a tireless campaigner against child abuse and exploitation, and we love her for that.

Let me ask another question. I know how you react, because we've been together before, when you see the--the videos of this little child. Tell us why you have such a negative response to her prancing and dancing.

Ms. ATLER: I--I think watching it today was as difficult as watching it the first time I saw it. Just seeing it over and over doesn't--doesn't take away how this chid was used, how she was exploited, how she did exactly what she was told to do.

Th--th--that's abuse, in my opinion. I--I've been asked to judge these Little Miss pageants for years. Who had any idea? Who had any idea what they--what at least this one was like? I don't know what all of them are like. But they should be outlawed. No girl should be involved in any sort of pageant like that until she's at least 16. We should end it.

RIVERA: There's definitely a sexual aspect to the way they costumed her.

Ms. ATLER: No question about that.

RIVERA: I saw that the first day. It is impossible--as that assistant DA in Denver said the very first day, `It's impossible to look at these videos and not see a terribly exploited child.' I believed that then, I believe that today. But here's our focus, Marilyn. We were wondering about Mom and we're wondering about what role, if any, your mother played--and I don't know to what extent you have spoken of this before--in this long, long period your father was so abusing and exploiting you.

Ms. ATLER: I haven't spoken of it before. I think most of us almost literally give our lives for our families because we don't want to destroy our families. I would never have put my father in jail. Let--let me rephrase that. I would never have put my father in jail until I learned only three years ago that he never stopped. My sister Gwen, who is six years older, when I went to talk to her, sh--she was 30, married with two children, and her first words were--to me were, `I thought I was the only one. I never should have left you. It's my fault.' She thought she was the only one. I knew I was the last one. And when I learned three years ago that my father never stopped, that he violated until he died at age 75--that's why many survivors come forward. They won't come forward for themselves, but if they find that their violator is continuing to violate, then they may come forward and say, `Not the next generation. No, no, we're going to end this.' So I would've--I would have pressed charges against my father knowing that.

My mother died in June, and I was a--a very good daughter to her and I was very respectful. And I would not--and I chose carefully what I said about my mother while still trying to educate. I think one of the most difficult sentences I've ever said in--in public--I was talking to 600 people, and one day I just--I just said, `My--my mother hurt me more than my father ever did.' And I was expecting people to say, `Why don't you leave? We don't understand that.' And these--these people were just nodding and coming up afterwards and saying, `Yes. I--yes.' And I know that's so hard to understand, but m--when I told my mother a year after my father died, she said she didn't believe me, which I was not prepared for at all. I mean, now I say to survivors, `Don't expect--don't--don't expect the support.' And when she said she didn't believe me, I just felt like I'd been--I was 48 years old.

She died in June. In November, I spoke in Medford, Oregon, and people stand up in line--stand in line to talk to me. And I noticed this woman in her 70s, pure white hair, waiting to talk to me and finally an hour, she gets up to me and she said, `You know, I worked for your father for a number of years.' And I said, `Really?'


Ms. ATLER: And she said--and I said, `I'm sorry.' Meaning, `I'm sorry that you--I know you adored them both and I'm sorry that you had to hear what I had to say tonight.' And she dropped her eyes and she said, `Actually, your mother was in touch with me twice since your story came forward,' which is 1991. And I said, `Really?' And she said, `She told me that what you were saying wasn't true.' And I thought, `Why doesn't that surprise me.' She defended my father t--to her death. She couldn't--she--my mother was not a mean or a vindictive person. You would have adored her. She was funny and--and smart and she had all the social graces. She just couldn't take my father on or--or s--or s--if she had accepted the fact that I was an incest survivor, then she had to say that--`Then I wasn't a mother and I--and I wasn't--then all that I thought I was, I wasn't.' That's real hard.

RIVERA: Did you ever share with your mother--I have this--and I--I--I'm sorry that I--I need to say this because I know this is going to be awful in a sense, but I have this image when I look at you now of something you described once of having you--how you would try to protect yourself, in a sense, from your father by going into the fetal position...

Ms. ATLER: Well, that's the only time...

RIVERA: ...and how he used to unpeel you in a sense.

Ms. ATLER: Well, Mother and I never talked about it. And when my story went public in 1991--I told her when I was 48 and my story went public when I was 53, and we still didn't talk about it. It's the elephant in the room that we--but one day she called me, about four--four years ago and she was--not crying, but close to it. And she said, `You said something that hurt me very badly today.' And I said, `I'm sorry, Mother, tell me--tell me what it is and I'll try not to say it again.' And she said, `You said your father pried you open.' And I said, `I did say that, Mother, because people are saying he molested me.' And I--people have to understand what that means. I locked my body into a tight fetal position and he pried me open. And she said, `Please don't say that again.' And I said, `I'll try not to.'

RIVERA: We'll be right back.

Ms. PAMELA GRIFFIN (Friend of Patsy Ramsey): (From upcoming segment) JonBenet wanted her makeup off after she competed, and Patsy was taking it off and got some in her eyes and it got a little bit red and swollen. But her eye isn't swollen from being hit.


(Excerpt from news report)

Unidentified Man #1: Can I ask you to respect her privacy? She does not want to answer any questions. She just wants to go home. Thank you.

Unidentified Man #2: Can you tell us why you were in Washington?

Ms. PATSY RAMSEY (JonBenet Ramsey's Mother): I had an oncology appointment with my oncologist today.

Man #2: Are you doing OK?

Ms. RAMSEY: I had a great checkup today.

Man #2: Good.

(End of excerpt)

RIVERA: That's Patsy Ramsey. I had not seen that. Rerack that, Donny, please? I had not seen that video. but I want Dr. Judianne Densen-Gerber, once more to take a look at this and...

DONNY (Cameraman): Camera one.

RIVERA: ...just roll it as soon...

Ms. RAMSEY: (From news footage) I had an oncology appointment...

RIVERA: Freeze it.

Ms. RAMSEY: ...with my oncol...

RIVERA: Comment, Judi?

Dr. DENSEN-GERBER: Well, the mother certainly is not as beautiful as the daughter, even in spite of the ages. I don't have any other comment.

RIVERA: She seems--she seems much more relaxed than the videos that I've seen.


RIVERA: Much more so.

Dr. DENSEN-GERBER: This is after the--the killing? That's an amazing picture. As you know, Geraldo, last year my son was killed in an accident and it took many months before I could even really appear in public.

RIVERA: And you were not even, obviously, involved in his tragic death.

Dr. DENSEN-GERBER: No, he was killed in California at 32.

RIVERA: Yeah. Well, you know, we e--we expressed our--our condolences to Judianne then. It's a horrible thing, too.

Yes, ma'am?

Unidentified Woman #1: Yes, my question's for Marilyn. I admire you for coming forward with this story. It's very difficult to hear. It must be very difficult to speak about. I was curious, is there a correlation between beauty pageant participants and sexual abuse?

Ms. ATLER: Well, that means we'd have to lump all beauty pageants into one, an--and there are so many different ones that--and I don't

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  Dr. Beuf 2/14/1997
Posted by: jameson245 - 03-04-2017, 05:09 PM - Forum: Prior sexual abuse - Replies (3)

"Dr. Beuf - NO abuse"
Posted by jams on Nov-18-00 at 08:55 PM (EST)

On Friday evening, February 14, 1997, KUSA-TV aired an interview with Dr. Beuf.

Anchor: JonBenet Ramsey's pediatrician says he is convinced she was not sexually abused.

And, he says, he told Boulder Police investigators that when they asked him.

He said he would only talk with one media person and that person was Paula Woodward.

Woodward: He said he wants the information he has as JonBenet's pediatrician out in the public, but he's appalled by media coverage and so will only talk once.

Dr. Francesco Beuf says he saw JonBenet 30 times in 3 years. He said the last time he saw her was five weeks before she died.

Woodward: When you talked with the police, did they ask you about sexual abuse of JonBenet?

Beuf: Yes, of course they did.

Woodward: What did you tell them?

Beuf: I told them absolutely, categorically no. There was absolutely no evidence - either physical or historical.

Woodward: And that's from seeing her 30 times in 3 years?

Beuf: About that.

Woodward: What else did they ask you?

Beuf: Oh, they asked many of the same questions you've been asking: relationship with her parents, what sort of child she was, if there was any indication of depression and sadness.

Woodward: And your answers?

Beuf: Only as appropriate. If she was sick, she wasn't feeling too well. If her mother was off being treated for cancer, she was sad at that.

Woodward: He talked with us in the treatment room where he saw her five weeks before she was killed.

Was she an ordinary kid?

Beuf: No. I think she was extraordinary in the amount of charm that she had. And sweetness was the quality I appreciated most.

Woodward: Where you aware of how much she was in beauty pageants or whether she was?

Beuf: I don't know how much she was in beauty pageants. When she was here, I think I heard it mentioned a couple of times. In the last year that she was doing it, it just wasn't a big deal. The big deal was how she was doing things with her friends here. How she was going to Michigan with her parents. Just the fun things in life. The beauty pageants just didn't seem to be at the top of the heap by any means.

Woodward: Tell me what she said to you.

Beuf: To be honest with you, I can't remember. I just remember it made me feel good to see that much happiness and niceness in one spot.

Woodward: Thirty visits in 3 years. He said her parents were good about getting her in and it wasn't an abnormal amount of visits.

Do you think JonBenet was sexually abused?

Beuf: I do not think she was sexually abused. I am convinced she wasn't sexually abused.

Woodward: Dr. Beuf also treats JonBenet's 10 year old brother Burke Ramsey. He describes him as a neat kid. Likes to play video games. That he's very bright and trying hard to deal with something he can't fully understand yet. Dr. Beuf says Burke Ramsey is just another nice kid whom he likes.

end of interview

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