Air Taser interview (and more)
#1
"AIR TASER - interview"


"AIR TASER interview"

MSNBC reporter: "... Taser International, the company that manufactured the stun gun Smit believes
was used in this crime. Steven, thanks for being here. In fact, he says it was an AIR TASER 34,000.
You've got one with you, show us how it works.
Steven Tuttle - Taser International: "Well, what you have is the stun gun version of the Air Taser. If
I push back the safety here, (firing stun gun in air)I can activate the actual stun gun and that's what
we... you have to apply to a person to keep them at bay, so to speak.
Reporter: Can you apply it to your arm?
ST: I can, ah, it's not fun, but (applies to arm held in air, the contact is brief and repeating as the
arm jumps away) AH (he grunted) It's very disconcerting and makes you want to stay away from it.
It's somewhat painful. To me that just felt like pins and needles hitting on my arm right now and I
want to get away from that pain.
Reporter: Did it leave a mark?
ST: Not at all. (Showing arm)
Reporter: Let's take a look at a couple of ... we still-framed just a moment ago duting this package
here... the front end of that Air taser, let's take a look at it right now. You can see, there you see,
how far apart are the two sort of electrodes that come out there? Are they roughly 3.5 cm apart?
ST: That's fairly close, yes.
Reporter: And there's another look at it there. OK, the reason I ask that is that Lou Smit took your
product, the 34000 Air Taser, he tested it on an anaestitized pig, hard to say, and produced the
same marks that were discovered on JonBenét Ramsey - not in one place, but in two separate
places. What do you make of that?
ST: Well, actually, we helped supply that Air Taser for the testing. We were as interested in this
case as Lou Smit is. We've worked with him from the very beginning of the case. The one thing that's
interesting is that the marks that the pigs have do look fairly similar to what's on JonBenét Ramsey.
What's unusual is that, if you saw my arm, it was going off in many, many directions. It's extremely
painful, uh, not even painful, just I wanted to get away from it. I don't know how you could leave
this particular device in one solid spot, not once but twice
Reporter: Yeah, but your arm wasn't restricted against a bed. What if a child abut, oh say, 35-40
pounds, age 6, is in a bed, asleep, somebody comes over without her hearing and uses a stun gun,
that taser you've got right there in your hand, and while holding her down uses it on her back and
her neck and face area?
ST: Well, that's an interesting idea because if I do this to a child of say 6 years of age while they're
in the middle of a very deep sleep, they're going to have fairly the same reaction I did. They're going
to want to get instinctually away from the pain. It would be almost be like being hit with a hot iron
while sleeping. It may take an extra second but you are going to wake up, kick, flail and scream....
Reporter: But didn't you tell our producer that if you do this to a hundred people you will get 100
different reactions? Right?
ST: You'll have about a hundred different reactions but most of them will be different screams,
different yelps, different people kicking. You will certainly not see any incapacitation at all. That's the
key to this issue is that you're NOT going to get incapacitation
Reporter: What are you gonna get?
ST: You're gonna get what I did just now and I'm still feeling it... I don't like the fact that I did that
to myself... I would want to get away from that pain...
Reporter: No temporary paralysis?
ST: None whatsoever. There's a lot of places on the internet, if you look up stun guns. It's
completely false as to what these things do as far as incapacitation rates. These are good devices to
keep somebody at bay at best.
Reporter: Is it possible, even though it may not have produced the desired reaction of incapacitation,
is it possible to produce the very same marks? Let's take a look, by the way, on the autopsy photo...
there you see, 3.5 cm apart, is it possible to produce those marks with what you have in your hand
there, Steven?
ST: I can't do it and I've never been able to replicate it on a person in my 7 years with the company.
Neither has anybody in our company been able to replicate those
Reporter: Are you telling me that your taser has never left a mark on any human being or any animal?
ST: It certainly leaves a mark in some cases like a reddish mark. I'm looking at my arm right now and
I've got little red spots here, all over the place - cause the electricity's dancing all over the place.
I'm not able to keep it in one spot. If I were to keep it in one spot, I might be able to get those two
3.5 cm type width spots but what's key here is even if I'm a 30 pound person, I'm going to get
instinctually away from this pain. If you were to have it, especially in two spots to be perfectly still, I
just don't know how....
Reporter: You're not being restrained and you don't have duct tape across your mouth but, Steven,
I'm afraid we're out of time. I want to thank you so much for coming here today and showing us how
it works, we appreciate it. Steven Tuttle of Taser International.
AFTER VIEWING LOU'S PRESENTATION
R: ...heard that story we had on during the break. Do you buy the theory? Does it hold water?
ST:I don't know. It's bewildering to us as a company. We were approached by Lou Smit in the very
beginning of the investigation. We provided a list of people who had the actual AIR TASER in
Colorado. We've also provided them a lot of information...
MISSING SECTION!!!!!!!
R: ...distinctive marks that appear to be the same spread. I think you have an AIR TASER with you
right now and there are in fact - - can you hold it up? - there are two electrodes in the end, right?
ST: There are two electrodes right here what they are talking about is actually leaving marks here
and they are about 3 1/2 cm apart and they're fairly similar in width if you were to measure those
two.
R: Now here's the big question - Can someone hold that to somebody without them flinching or
moving back?
ST: That's the crux of the bewilderment from our company's perspective. I'm going to go ahead and
do this on my arm. I don't like doing this at all but
R: I'm sure you don't
ST: I want to try to hold it there as long as I can. Now this would be simulating anybody's reaction.
(He grimaced and held the stun gun to his arm, he did NOT cry out or make any noise until he pulled
the stun gun away.)
UH! That is exceedingly painful to say the least, it's something instinctually I want to get away from
R: OK, but you're a grown man, Let's take ourselves to the crime scene. This is a little girl who was
asleep, she's 6 years old, what's to say a grown man can't hold her down and just simply hold that to
her?
ST: Well, that could be done, but what we're seeing is a mark that's not moving and as you saw my
arm flailing about... even if someone is heavier,holding that down, that person is going to wake up
immediately and instinctively want to get away from the pain.
R: What about the the notion of incapacitating someone? Is this, obviously when you're being
shocked there, you're out of it for that moment, but when you took it away, you were fine. Will it
knock somebody out?
ST: That is very, very crucial to the issue here, it will not knock someone out, it will not render them
mute. They will kick and scream. I did my best to not scream into the microphone here because it
was very uncomfortable.
R: Once you took it away, though, you were fine?
ST: ... once you stop it. And it's very loud when it's in the air. It does go much more silent as Lou
Smit pointed out with the pillow. It does go more silent when you stick it in the skin. However, the
minute that person breaks contact you do get that loud arcing sound. And again, it just simply would
not cause incapacitation
R: Mr. Tuttle, I can certainly understand why a company would not want their name or product
associated with a crime in this case. Do you see any reasonable possibility that it COULD have been a
TASER and that a child that young COULD have been incapacitated?
ST: It could have been ours and I certainly, we want to work with the investigators, we have from
the very beginning. Um, I don't know. It's bewildering to see if this was ours. The measurements are
close. They're not exact, but I don't know. That's what's stupifying - is you've got two separate
marks that are crystally clear, perfect, without any movement shown on the suspect's, oh, I'm sorry,
on JonBenét. I just don't understand that, how that can be there. (Showing his arm) I don't have the
marks here, they're all over the place. I'm not sure if you can see... from me moving, they've gone
everywhere. Ah,
R: Certainly not as deep as what we saw there. You mentioned... we're quickly running out of time...
you mentioned that you provided list of those who had been sold. Is this something you have to
register to buy?
ST: Yes We do require as a company that if a person purchases an AIR TASER, we are going to know
who that person is. They are registered in a data base and if it's used in the TASER mode, which
would incapacitate somebody, it's going to emit little confetti tags that would match back to the
owner. In this case the taser was not used so we don't have these confetti tags. But we do have
serial numbers. If they find one, we could match that up to who it was sold to.
R: Steven Tuttle, we do appreciate you spending the time with us today.
ST: Thank you


1. "the child was still"
In response to message #0


ST: It could have been ours and I certainly, we want to work with the investigators, we have from the
very beginning. Um, I don't know. It's bewildering to see if this was ours. The measurements are close.
They're not exact, but I don't know. That's what's stupifying - is you've got two separate marks that
are crystally clear, perfect, without any movement shown on the suspect's, oh, I'm sorry, on
JonBenét. I just don't understand that, how that can be there.
The problem he had was that the child hadn't jumped away - - but she clearly could have been
pushed into the bed when she was stunned in the back - - a 45 pound child could have been kept
fairly still under those circumstances.
As for the face marks - - she could have been held still, she might (mercifully) have been unconscious.

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
LovelyPigeon
Charter Member
2449 posts
Jul-20-01, 12:46 PM (GMT)

2. "I saw this interview"
In response to message #0


and I have to note that Tuttle did not scream or make any loud noises when he stunned himself very
very briefly.
Why anyone wants to insist that JonBenét would have screamed loudly if stunned refutes the
evidence Tuttle provided live and also the reports of field testing available online.

Remove | Alert | IP
Printer-friendly page | Edit | Reply | Reply With Quote | Top

LovelyPigeon
Charter Member
2449 posts
Jul-20-01, 12:49 PM (GMT)

3. "also note:"
In response to message #2


STuttle: Well, actually, we helped supply that Air Taser for the testing. We were as interested in this
case as Lou Smit is. We've worked with him from the very beginning of the case. The one thing that's
interesting is that the marks that the pigs have do look fairly similar to what's on JonBenét Ramsey.
Tuttle acknowledges that the marks made on the the pigs by the Air Taser he supplied to Lou Smit
look similar to marks on JonBenét.

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

Seal
Charter Member
25 posts
Jul-20-01, 01:03 PM (GMT)

4. "OKay...no there is no reason for this action...but, we could "
In response to message #3


LAST EDITED ON Jul-20-01 AT 01:05 PM (EST)
be discussing a sadistic killer...Could those stun gun marks have been put on JonBenet AFTER she
went uuconscious? Maybe as a means to find out whether she was still alive? Perhaps even as the
garrotte was cutting her breath off...and she didn't have the strength to rebel against the effects of
the stun gun.
Another thing...if JonBenet was sound asleep she wouldn't flinch from the stun gun because unlike the
demontrator, she wouldn't have known it was coming.

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
DonBradley
Charter Member
596 posts
Jul-20-01, 01:05 PM (GMT)

5. "Public Relations"
In response to message #3


Yes...'similar'...thats as close as the company wants to get...no closer. They don't want their product
associated with a notorious crime.
So there will be as much 'fluff' as possible and as little substance as possible...but they will emphasize
their 'cooperation' and 'interest in the case' while distancing their product and their company as much
as possible.

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
jameson
Charter Member
5676 posts
Jul-20-01, 01:19 PM (GMT)

6. "BORG LIES"
In response to message #5


1. That the stun gun marks don't match
2. That the people from Air Taser totally deny the possibility
3. That Lou Smit has gone back on his belief that it was a stun gun - - most likely an Air Taser
4. That Dr. Mike Dobersen has said that he can't identify the marks without the body being exhumed.
The BORG is LYING - - we have the quotes - - everyone can see the transcripts, see the tapes.
The BORG simply writes misinformation as FACT and figures that if they write something three times it
might become something real. But it doesn't.

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

LovelyPigeon
Charter Member
2449 posts
Jul-20-01, 01:20 PM (GMT)

7. "field reports on Taser use"
In response to message #5


these are from the Air Taser manufactorer's site:
http://www.airtaser.com/Web_2000/M26Uses.htm
Descriptions are given of grown men, agitated and physically threatening police who are stunned by
the Air Taser (in dart mode). The men are not described as screaming after being hit, but they are
described as being knocked to the ground.
at the home page http://www.airtaser.com there are various links to field reports and some video
tapes (which I didn't access) that indicate in their titles that the stun victim is knocked to the ground
by the stun action.

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
why_nut
Charter Member
8 posts
Jul-20-01, 02:45 PM (GMT)

8. "LovelyPigeon"
In response to message #7


"Descriptions are given of grown men, agitated and physically threatening police who are stunned by
the Air Taser (in dart mode). The men are not described as screaming after being hit, but they are
described as being knocked to the ground."
....................................................................................................
I downloaded the videos. Where there is audio at all, the targets of stun guns are heard yelling in pain
immediately upon the electrical charge being applied. In all cases, the person being hit did fall down,
but also immediately, upon falling down, began to roll or flail as if to get away from the source of the
pain. Not one person was paralyzed or rendered unconscious.

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

jameson
Charter Member
5676 posts
Jul-20-01, 02:55 PM (GMT)

9. "not unconscious"
In response to message #8


I was clearly told that people do not lose consciousness - - they become a bit disoriented, perhaps,
but the important thing is that they totally lose control of their muscles - - they are like jello -- can't
fight back, can't scream - - they are totally NOT IN CONTROL.
Any sound they emit is beyone their control.
Some people make a sound, others do not. A pillow over her face - - or a hand - or being pushed into
the bedding could have silenced her.

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
why_nut
Charter Member
8 posts
Jul-20-01, 03:38 PM (GMT)

10. "Jameson"
In response to message #9


"I was clearly told that people do not lose consciousness - - they become a bit disoriented, perhaps,
but the important thing is that they totally lose control of their muscles - - they are like jello -- can't
fight back, can't scream - - they are totally NOT IN CONTROL."
....................................................................................................
What you have been told is not accurate, according to the videos, so you may wish to get your
information from what you can clearly see. The videos do not suggest, they demonstrate, that when a
person is hit by a stun gun, their legs will fall out from underneath them if they are standing, but once
they have fallen, they are entirely capable of voluntary movement. Look at the video on the Air Taser
site, the one called "Dangerous Traffic Stop." There you will see a man who is hit with a Taser.
Immediately upon being hit and feeling the pain it inflicts, he controls his actions enough to lay down
on the ground in accord with the officer's instructions. This is not within minutes, but within two
seconds. Unless you have DSL, you are probably disinclined to download the 42mb file, but you should,
it contains video of news stories that involved the use of the Taser. Again, the targets of
stun-gunning demonstrate that they are capable of controlled movement, though they use that
control to attempt to get away from the pain. If you want to behave as you accuse the BPD of doing,
and ignore evidence that prevents you from fitting a stun gun's consequences into your favored
theory, you certainly have that right. If you want to take a higher road than the BPD, though, you will
look at all of the videos and judge for yourself whether JonBenet would have acted in a radically
different manner than the targets are shown doing.

``~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
shadi
Charter Member
7 posts
Jul-20-01, 04:49 PM (GMT)

11. "apple and oranges"
In response to message #10


The stun gun shown in the video is different than the type believed to be used on JB. Also, in the
video that shows the volunteer being shot, there is no scream. Nevertheless, the videos show the
firing type stungun as opposed to the one that is pressed against the skin. BIG DIFFERENCE. If you
hold the electrodes against the skin firmly for 2-3 seconds, marks will appear. This can not be
recreated by stunning yourself as we all have a basic survival instinct to pull away. If you are held
firmly and the electrodes are placed against the skin you can totally incapacitate someone. Have
someone try it on you.

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
jameson
Charter Member
5676 posts
Jul-20-01, 07:20 PM (GMT)

12. ""mashed""
In response to message #11


I have spoken directly to a few college kids who actually did some stun gun experiments "for kicks' and
THEY told me that if the stun gun was "mashed" into the subject, the results were more "effective"
than if it was just a "short buzz."
The stun gun was designed to drop a man weighing 200 pounds with a short burst. I think it is
perfectly reasonable to believe JonBenét would have been incapable of struggling for minutes - - long
minutes - if she was the subject of such an attack.

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
LovelyPigeon
Charter Member
2449 posts
Jul-20-01, 07:32 PM (GMT)

13. "No unconscious adults"
In response to message #0


but I can't help but wonder what the results would be on a child.
I downloaded the Dangerous Traffic Stop video from that site, and the man stunned in that one
doesn't scream or flail about when he is stunned. The adults become compliant once they are stunned,
and I would imagine a child would also be compliant afterwards to avoid the stun occuring again.
As shadi posted, the 1-2 second pulse given by the dart mode of the Air Taser on an adult might be
considerably less stunning than an extended pulse of electricity in the contact stungun mode against a
45 pound child. There are no reports yet on the results of a child being stunned by direct & prolonged
contact by an Air Taser.
The state of Virginia suspended use of stun guns by law enforcement this Spring in response to the
death of a prison inmate who was stunned repeatedly while strapped down. He died of cardiac
fibrillation. http://www.geocities.com/lovelypigeon/st...soner.html The marks left on his
abdomen look very much like the marks on JonBenét's back, IMO.

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
jameson
Charter Member
5676 posts
Jul-20-01, 08:04 PM (GMT)

14. "response to MM"
In response to message #13


MM wrote to LP - - "You neglected to quote this statement from Steve Tuttle about the marks on
JonBenet: "We have never seen those types of marks when you touch somebody with a stun gun. We
are talking hundreds of people that have been touched with these devices. I can't replicate those
marks." (Boulder Daily Camera, May 2, 2001)
What does it take to make people understand - - the marks can NOT be replicated unless the subject
is injured THEN DIES! When a dead person (or pig0 is zapped, there is no mark. When a living person is
zapped, the body immediately starts to heal and the marks simply are not the same.
Further, Tuttle told both Coffman and myself that they had never done tests with the stun guns to
document MARKS - - just "effects".
Steve Tuttle was totally lost before seeing Smit on TODAY. He seemed more confused (and upset)
after.
More from Coffman...
"Got that? The Air Taser stun gun has NEVER made the kind of marks that are seen on JonBenet.
Steve Tuttle also pointed out that the Air Taser does not render people unconscious. He said that the
stun gun theory "defies the logic of what the weapon does." The stun gun theory is based on a
misunderstanding about what stun guns can do to people."
Get this, Frank - the Air Taser Stun Gun may not have made those kinds of marks in the lab or on FOX
when Tuttle briefly touched his arm with the stun gun and pulled away... but it certainly DID make
similar marks when HELD to the skin of a pig before he DIED!
Keep the blinders on, Frank....
Reply
#2
Reporter: And there's another look at it there. OK, the reason I ask that is that Lou Smit took your
product, the 34000 Air Taser, he tested it on an anaestitized pig, hard to say, and produced the
same marks that were discovered on JonBenét Ramsey - not in one place, but in two separate
places. What do you make of that?
ST: Well, actually, we helped supply that Air Taser for the testing. We were as interested in this
case as Lou Smit is. We've worked with him from the very beginning of the case. The one thing that's
interesting is that the marks that the pigs have do look fairly similar to what's on JonBenét Ramsey.
What's unusual is that, if you saw my arm, it was going off in many, many directions. It's extremely
painful, uh, not even painful, just I wanted to get away from it. I don't know how you could leave
this particular device in one solid spot, not once but twice
Reporter: Yeah, but your arm wasn't restricted against a bed. What if a child abut, oh say, 35-40
pounds, age 6, is in a bed, asleep, somebody comes over without her hearing and uses a stun gun,
that taser you've got right there in your hand, and while holding her down uses it on her back and
her neck and face area?
ST: Well, that's an interesting idea because if I do this to a child of say 6 years of age while they're
in the middle of a very deep sleep, they're going to have fairly the same reaction I did. They're going
to want to get instinctually away from the pain. It would be almost be like being hit with a hot iron
while sleeping. It may take an extra second but you are going to wake up, kick, flail and scream....
Reporter: But didn't you tell our producer that if you do this to a hundred people you will get 100
different reactions? Right?
ST: You'll have about a hundred different reactions but most of them will be different screams,
different yelps, different people kicking. You will certainly not see any incapacitation at all. That's the
key to this issue is that you're NOT going to get incapacitation.



@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@

Can I call BULLSHIT? The police do not carry weapons intended to just tickle or anger suspects, they carry weapons that do make full grown men drop to their knees. Some people have DIED after being hit with a stun gun's voltage.

And he doesn't really consider that a grown man can certainly hold a 45 pound child still for a few seconds while he gets a good shot in.
Reply
#3
Reporter: Is it possible, even though it may not have produced the desired reaction of incapacitation,
is it possible to produce the very same marks? Let's take a look, by the way, on the autopsy photo...
there you see, 3.5 cm apart, is it possible to produce those marks with what you have in your hand
there, Steven?
ST: I can't do it and I've never been able to replicate it on a person in my 7 years with the company.
Neither has anybody in our company been able to replicate those
Reporter: Are you telling me that your taser has never left a mark on any human being or any animal?
ST: It certainly leaves a mark in some cases like a reddish mark. I'm looking at my arm right now and
I've got little red spots here, all over the place - cause the electricity's dancing all over the place.
I'm not able to keep it in one spot. If I were to keep it in one spot, I might be able to get those two
3.5 cm type width spots but what's key here is even if I'm a 30 pound person, I'm going to get
instinctually away from this pain. If you were to have it, especially in two spots to be perfectly still, I
just don't know how....



@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@

Tuttle did not deny the marks could have come from his product, not at all.  He just said people pull away and when that happens the marks are different.
Reply
#4
The quote that matters:

R: . Do you see any reasonable possibility that it COULD have been a
TASER and that a child that young COULD have been incapacitated?

ST: It could have been ours and I certainly, we want to work with the investigators, we have from
the very beginning. Um, I don't know. It's bewildering to see if this was ours. The measurements are
close. They're not exact, but I don't know. That's what's stupifying - is you've got two separate
marks that are crystally clear, perfect, without any movement
Reply
#5
(02-19-2017, 04:20 PM)jameson245 Wrote: "AIR TASER - interview"


"AIR TASER interview"

MSNBC reporter: "... Taser International, the company that manufactured the stun gun Smit believes
was used in this crime. Steven, thanks for being here. In fact, he says it was an AIR TASER 34,000.
You've got one with you, show us how it works.
Steven Tuttle - Taser International: "Well, what you have is the stun gun version of the Air Taser. If
I push back the safety here, (firing stun gun in air)I can activate the actual stun gun and that's what
we... you have to apply to a person to keep them at bay, so to speak.
Reporter: Can you apply it to your arm?
ST: I can, ah, it's not fun, but (applies to arm held in air, the contact is brief and repeating as the
arm jumps away) AH (he grunted) It's very disconcerting and makes you want to stay away from it.
It's somewhat painful. To me that just felt like pins and needles hitting on my arm right now and I
want to get away from that pain.
Reporter: Did it leave a mark?
ST: Not at all. (Showing arm)
Reporter: Let's take a look at a couple of ... we still-framed just a moment ago duting this package
here... the front end of that Air taser, let's take a look at it right now. You can see, there you see,
how far apart are the two sort of electrodes that come out there? Are they roughly 3.5 cm apart?
ST: That's fairly close, yes.
Reporter: And there's another look at it there. OK, the reason I ask that is that Lou Smit took your
product, the 34000 Air Taser, he tested it on an anaestitized pig, hard to say, and produced the
same marks that were discovered on JonBenét Ramsey - not in one place, but in two separate
places. What do you make of that?
ST: Well, actually, we helped supply that Air Taser for the testing. We were as interested in this
case as Lou Smit is. We've worked with him from the very beginning of the case. The one thing that's
interesting is that the marks that the pigs have do look fairly similar to what's on JonBenét Ramsey.
What's unusual is that, if you saw my arm, it was going off in many, many directions. It's extremely
painful, uh, not even painful, just I wanted to get away from it. I don't know how you could leave
this particular device in one solid spot, not once but twice
Reporter: Yeah, but your arm wasn't restricted against a bed. What if a child abut, oh say, 35-40
pounds, age 6, is in a bed, asleep, somebody comes over without her hearing and uses a stun gun,
that taser you've got right there in your hand, and while holding her down uses it on her back and
her neck and face area?
ST: Well, that's an interesting idea because if I do this to a child of say 6 years of age while they're
in the middle of a very deep sleep, they're going to have fairly the same reaction I did. They're going
to want to get instinctually away from the pain. It would be almost be like being hit with a hot iron
while sleeping. It may take an extra second but you are going to wake up, kick, flail and scream....
Reporter: But didn't you tell our producer that if you do this to a hundred people you will get 100
different reactions? Right?
ST: You'll have about a hundred different reactions but most of them will be different screams,
different yelps, different people kicking. You will certainly not see any incapacitation at all. That's the
key to this issue is that you're NOT going to get incapacitation
Reporter: What are you gonna get?
ST: You're gonna get what I did just now and I'm still feeling it... I don't like the fact that I did that
to myself... I would want to get away from that pain...
Reporter: No temporary paralysis?
ST: None whatsoever. There's a lot of places on the internet, if you look up stun guns. It's
completely false as to what these things do as far as incapacitation rates. These are good devices to
keep somebody at bay at best.
Reporter: Is it possible, even though it may not have produced the desired reaction of incapacitation,
is it possible to produce the very same marks? Let's take a look, by the way, on the autopsy photo...
there you see, 3.5 cm apart, is it possible to produce those marks with what you have in your hand
there, Steven?
ST: I can't do it and I've never been able to replicate it on a person in my 7 years with the company.
Neither has anybody in our company been able to replicate those
Reporter: Are you telling me that your taser has never left a mark on any human being or any animal?
ST: It certainly leaves a mark in some cases like a reddish mark. I'm looking at my arm right now and
I've got little red spots here, all over the place - cause the electricity's dancing all over the place.
I'm not able to keep it in one spot. If I were to keep it in one spot, I might be able to get those two
3.5 cm type width spots but what's key here is even if I'm a 30 pound person, I'm going to get
instinctually away from this pain. If you were to have it, especially in two spots to be perfectly still, I
just don't know how....
Reporter: You're not being restrained and you don't have duct tape across your mouth but, Steven,
I'm afraid we're out of time. I want to thank you so much for coming here today and showing us how
it works, we appreciate it. Steven Tuttle of Taser International.
AFTER VIEWING LOU'S PRESENTATION
R: ...heard that story we had on during the break. Do you buy the theory? Does it hold water?
ST:I don't know. It's bewildering to us as a company. We were approached by Lou Smit in the very
beginning of the investigation. We provided a list of people who had the actual AIR TASER in
Colorado. We've also provided them a lot of information...
MISSING SECTION!!!!!!!
R: ...distinctive marks that appear to be the same spread. I think you have an AIR TASER with you
right now and there are in fact - - can you hold it up? - there are two electrodes in the end, right?
ST: There are two electrodes right here what they are talking about is actually leaving marks here
and they are about 3 1/2 cm apart and they're fairly similar in width if you were to measure those
two.
R: Now here's the big question - Can someone hold that to somebody without them flinching or
moving back?
ST: That's the crux of the bewilderment from our company's perspective. I'm going to go ahead and
do this on my arm. I don't like doing this at all but
R: I'm sure you don't
ST: I want to try to hold it there as long as I can. Now this would be simulating anybody's reaction.
(He grimaced and held the stun gun to his arm, he did NOT cry out or make any noise until he pulled
the stun gun away.)
UH! That is exceedingly painful to say the least, it's something instinctually I want to get away from
R: OK, but you're a grown man, Let's take ourselves to the crime scene. This is a little girl who was
asleep, she's 6 years old, what's to say a grown man can't hold her down and just simply hold that to
her?
ST: Well, that could be done, but what we're seeing is a mark that's not moving and as you saw my
arm flailing about... even if someone is heavier,holding that down, that person is going to wake up
immediately and instinctively want to get away from the pain.
R: What about the the notion of incapacitating someone? Is this, obviously when you're being
shocked there, you're out of it for that moment, but when you took it away, you were fine. Will it
knock somebody out?
ST: That is very, very crucial to the issue here, it will not knock someone out, it will not render them
mute. They will kick and scream. I did my best to not scream into the microphone here because it
was very uncomfortable.
R: Once you took it away, though, you were fine?
ST: ... once you stop it. And it's very loud when it's in the air. It does go much more silent as Lou
Smit pointed out with the pillow. It does go more silent when you stick it in the skin. However, the
minute that person breaks contact you do get that loud arcing sound. And again, it just simply would
not cause incapacitation
R: Mr. Tuttle, I can certainly understand why a company would not want their name or product
associated with a crime in this case. Do you see any reasonable possibility that it COULD have been a
TASER and that a child that young COULD have been incapacitated?
ST: It could have been ours and I certainly, we want to work with the investigators, we have from
the very beginning. Um, I don't know. It's bewildering to see if this was ours. The measurements are
close. They're not exact, but I don't know. That's what's stupifying - is you've got two separate
marks that are crystally clear, perfect, without any movement shown on the suspect's, oh, I'm sorry,
on JonBenét. I just don't understand that, how that can be there. (Showing his arm) I don't have the
marks here, they're all over the place. I'm not sure if you can see... from me moving, they've gone
everywhere. Ah,
R: Certainly not as deep as what we saw there. You mentioned... we're quickly running out of time...
you mentioned that you provided list of those who had been sold. Is this something you have to
register to buy?
ST: Yes We do require as a company that if a person purchases an AIR TASER, we are going to know
who that person is. They are registered in a data base and if it's used in the TASER mode, which
would incapacitate somebody, it's going to emit little confetti tags that would match back to the
owner. In this case the taser was not used so we don't have these confetti tags. But we do have
serial numbers. If they find one, we could match that up to who it was sold to.
R: Steven Tuttle, we do appreciate you spending the time with us today.
ST: Thank you


1. "the child was still"
In response to message #0


ST: It could have been ours and I certainly, we want to work with the investigators, we have from the
very beginning. Um, I don't know. It's bewildering to see if this was ours. The measurements are close.
They're not exact, but I don't know. That's what's stupifying - is you've got two separate marks that
are crystally clear, perfect, without any movement shown on the suspect's, oh, I'm sorry, on
JonBenét. I just don't understand that, how that can be there.
The problem he had was that the child hadn't jumped away - - but she clearly could have been
pushed into the bed when she was stunned in the back - - a 45 pound child could have been kept
fairly still under those circumstances.
As for the face marks - - she could have been held still, she might (mercifully) have been unconscious.

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
LovelyPigeon
Charter Member
2449 posts
Jul-20-01, 12:46 PM (GMT)

2. "I saw this interview"
In response to message #0


and I have to note that Tuttle did not scream or make any loud noises when he stunned himself very
very briefly.
Why anyone wants to insist that JonBenét would have screamed loudly if stunned refutes the
evidence Tuttle provided live and also the reports of field testing available online.

Remove | Alert | IP
Printer-friendly page | Edit | Reply | Reply With Quote | Top

LovelyPigeon
Charter Member
2449 posts
Jul-20-01, 12:49 PM (GMT)

3. "also note:"
In response to message #2


STuttle: Well, actually, we helped supply that Air Taser for the testing. We were as interested in this
case as Lou Smit is. We've worked with him from the very beginning of the case. The one thing that's
interesting is that the marks that the pigs have do look fairly similar to what's on JonBenét Ramsey.
Tuttle acknowledges that the marks made on the the pigs by the Air Taser he supplied to Lou Smit
look similar to marks on JonBenét.

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

Seal
Charter Member
25 posts
Jul-20-01, 01:03 PM (GMT)

4. "OKay...no there is no reason for this action...but, we could "
In response to message #3


LAST EDITED ON Jul-20-01 AT 01:05 PM (EST)
be discussing a sadistic killer...Could those stun gun marks have been put on JonBenet AFTER she
went uuconscious? Maybe as a means to find out whether she was still alive? Perhaps even as the
garrotte was cutting her breath off...and she didn't have the strength to rebel against the effects of
the stun gun.
Another thing...if JonBenet was sound asleep she wouldn't flinch from the stun gun because unlike the
demontrator, she wouldn't have known it was coming.

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
DonBradley
Charter Member
596 posts
Jul-20-01, 01:05 PM (GMT)

5. "Public Relations"
In response to message #3


Yes...'similar'...thats as close as the company wants to get...no closer. They don't want their product
associated with a notorious crime.
So there will be as much 'fluff' as possible and as little substance as possible...but they will emphasize
their 'cooperation' and 'interest in the case' while distancing their product and their company as much
as possible.

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
jameson
Charter Member
5676 posts
Jul-20-01, 01:19 PM (GMT)

6. "BORG LIES"
In response to message #5


1. That the stun gun marks don't match
2. That the people from Air Taser totally deny the possibility
3. That Lou Smit has gone back on his belief that it was a stun gun - - most likely an Air Taser
4. That Dr. Mike Dobersen has said that he can't identify the marks without the body being exhumed.
The BORG is LYING - - we have the quotes - - everyone can see the transcripts, see the tapes.
The BORG simply writes misinformation as FACT and figures that if they write something three times it
might become something real. But it doesn't.

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

LovelyPigeon
Charter Member
2449 posts
Jul-20-01, 01:20 PM (GMT)

7. "field reports on Taser use"
In response to message #5


these are from the Air Taser manufactorer's site:
http://www.airtaser.com/Web_2000/M26Uses.htm
Descriptions are given of grown men, agitated and physically threatening police who are stunned by
the Air Taser (in dart mode). The men are not described as screaming after being hit, but they are
described as being knocked to the ground.
at the home page http://www.airtaser.com there are various links to field reports and some video
tapes (which I didn't access) that indicate in their titles that the stun victim is knocked to the ground
by the stun action.

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
why_nut
Charter Member
8 posts
Jul-20-01, 02:45 PM (GMT)

8. "LovelyPigeon"
In response to message #7


"Descriptions are given of grown men, agitated and physically threatening police who are stunned by
the Air Taser (in dart mode). The men are not described as screaming after being hit, but they are
described as being knocked to the ground."
....................................................................................................
I downloaded the videos. Where there is audio at all, the targets of stun guns are heard yelling in pain
immediately upon the electrical charge being applied. In all cases, the person being hit did fall down,
but also immediately, upon falling down, began to roll or flail as if to get away from the source of the
pain. Not one person was paralyzed or rendered unconscious.

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

jameson
Charter Member
5676 posts
Jul-20-01, 02:55 PM (GMT)

9. "not unconscious"
In response to message #8


I was clearly told that people do not lose consciousness - - they become a bit disoriented, perhaps,
but the important thing is that they totally lose control of their muscles - - they are like jello -- can't
fight back, can't scream - - they are totally NOT IN CONTROL.
Any sound they emit is beyone their control.
Some people make a sound, others do not. A pillow over her face - - or a hand - or being pushed into
the bedding could have silenced her.

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
why_nut
Charter Member
8 posts
Jul-20-01, 03:38 PM (GMT)

10. "Jameson"
In response to message #9


"I was clearly told that people do not lose consciousness - - they become a bit disoriented, perhaps,
but the important thing is that they totally lose control of their muscles - - they are like jello -- can't
fight back, can't scream - - they are totally NOT IN CONTROL."
....................................................................................................
What you have been told is not accurate, according to the videos, so you may wish to get your
information from what you can clearly see. The videos do not suggest, they demonstrate, that when a
person is hit by a stun gun, their legs will fall out from underneath them if they are standing, but once
they have fallen, they are entirely capable of voluntary movement. Look at the video on the Air Taser
site, the one called "Dangerous Traffic Stop." There you will see a man who is hit with a Taser.
Immediately upon being hit and feeling the pain it inflicts, he controls his actions enough to lay down
on the ground in accord with the officer's instructions. This is not within minutes, but within two
seconds. Unless you have DSL, you are probably disinclined to download the 42mb file, but you should,
it contains video of news stories that involved the use of the Taser. Again, the targets of
stun-gunning demonstrate that they are capable of controlled movement, though they use that
control to attempt to get away from the pain. If you want to behave as you accuse the BPD of doing,
and ignore evidence that prevents you from fitting a stun gun's consequences into your favored
theory, you certainly have that right. If you want to take a higher road than the BPD, though, you will
look at all of the videos and judge for yourself whether JonBenet would have acted in a radically
different manner than the targets are shown doing.

``~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
shadi
Charter Member
7 posts
Jul-20-01, 04:49 PM (GMT)

11. "apple and oranges"
In response to message #10


The stun gun shown in the video is different than the type believed to be used on JB. Also, in the
video that shows the volunteer being shot, there is no scream. Nevertheless, the videos show the
firing type stungun as opposed to the one that is pressed against the skin. BIG DIFFERENCE. If you
hold the electrodes against the skin firmly for 2-3 seconds, marks will appear. This can not be
recreated by stunning yourself as we all have a basic survival instinct to pull away. If you are held
firmly and the electrodes are placed against the skin you can totally incapacitate someone. Have
someone try it on you.

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
jameson
Charter Member
5676 posts
Jul-20-01, 07:20 PM (GMT)

12. ""mashed""
In response to message #11


I have spoken directly to a few college kids who actually did some stun gun experiments "for kicks' and
THEY told me that if the stun gun was "mashed" into the subject, the results were more "effective"
than if it was just a "short buzz."
The stun gun was designed to drop a man weighing 200 pounds with a short burst. I think it is
perfectly reasonable to believe JonBenét would have been incapable of struggling for minutes - - long
minutes - if she was the subject of such an attack.

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
LovelyPigeon
Charter Member
2449 posts
Jul-20-01, 07:32 PM (GMT)

13. "No unconscious adults"
In response to message #0


but I can't help but wonder what the results would be on a child.
I downloaded the Dangerous Traffic Stop video from that site, and the man stunned in that one
doesn't scream or flail about when he is stunned. The adults become compliant once they are stunned,
and I would imagine a child would also be compliant afterwards to avoid the stun occuring again.
As shadi posted, the 1-2 second pulse given by the dart mode of the Air Taser on an adult might be
considerably less stunning than an extended pulse of electricity in the contact stungun mode against a
45 pound child. There are no reports yet on the results of a child being stunned by direct & prolonged
contact by an Air Taser.
The state of Virginia suspended use of stun guns by law enforcement this Spring in response to the
death of a prison inmate who was stunned repeatedly while strapped down. He died of cardiac
fibrillation. http://www.geocities.com/lovelypigeon/st...soner.html The marks left on his
abdomen look very much like the marks on JonBenét's back, IMO.

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
jameson
Charter Member
5676 posts
Jul-20-01, 08:04 PM (GMT)

14. "response to MM"
In response to message #13


MM wrote to LP - - "You neglected to quote this statement from Steve Tuttle about the marks on
JonBenet: "We have never seen those types of marks when you touch somebody with a stun gun. We
are talking hundreds of people that have been touched with these devices. I can't replicate those
marks." (Boulder Daily Camera, May 2, 2001)
What does it take to make people understand - - the marks can NOT be replicated unless the subject
is injured THEN DIES! When a dead person (or pig0 is zapped, there is no mark. When a living person is
zapped, the body immediately starts to heal and the marks simply are not the same.
Further, Tuttle told both Coffman and myself that they had never done tests with the stun guns to
document MARKS - - just "effects".
Steve Tuttle was totally lost before seeing Smit on TODAY. He seemed more confused (and upset)
after.
More from Coffman...
"Got that? The Air Taser stun gun has NEVER made the kind of marks that are seen on JonBenet.
Steve Tuttle also pointed out that the Air Taser does not render people unconscious. He said that the
stun gun theory "defies the logic of what the weapon does." The stun gun theory is based on a
misunderstanding about what stun guns can do to people."
Get this, Frank - the Air Taser Stun Gun may not have made those kinds of marks in the lab or on FOX
when Tuttle briefly touched his arm with the stun gun and pulled away... but it certainly DID make
similar marks when HELD to the skin of a pig before he DIED!
Keep the blinders on, Frank....

Testing done on a dead pig and live adults: when you look at subjects that were similar to the size of JBR body, none were similar. Testing done on adults indicated a natural desire to move away from the source of pain and discomfort. A child being held against her will would not be able to get away, but would the perp be able to shoot/taze in rapid fire 2x at the same location on the body? This test was not done on a child--could not even be replicated to the satisfaction of this writer. The representative from the taser manufacturer indicates testing done on adults and also live on himself--which again is not reliable as circumstances not even close to the actual crime. So, stun gun theory is a wash, not replicatable. Is it possible then for stun gun to be used as a method to restart an unconscious person? again, is this replicatable? Report indicates that it was tested to cause atrial fibrillation on an adult subject.When looking at being jolted at pressure per square inch of the skin (surface), results would be skewed as pressure per square inch on an adult vs a 60 pound child would be totally different. Testing on a dead pig is not reliable as there is no blood flow, it can only indicate what occurs at the site,however still not reliable as there are no sweat glands on a pig and the tazed area would not dissipate as it would on a "live' sweating individual through pores. I found any info on the taser to be subjectable and unreliable as it cannot be replicated exactly.
Reply
#6
The pig was not pulling away and the marks were very VERY close. That is why Dobeerson said he was willing to testify that "to a medical cethe marks were left by a stun gun. He could find no other weapon that would leave those marks, certainly not snaps on some pants or a pot holder loom or a railroad track.
Reply
#7
An old Q&A

texasgirl77 wrote:
Jameson, I have questions about the stun gun I'm hoping you can answer.
....clip....
So I'm just trying to clear up the different things I've read. Do you believe a stun was used and was it used for torture or to subdue?
Lou Smit had no doubt those marks were kleft by a stun gun. I went with him and Dr. Doberson to the clinic where they did the pig experiments and got a whole lot of education on the subject and I also have no doubt.

They anaestitized (sp?) the pigs, did all kinds of things to them (stun gun, cigarette burns, cuts, anything and everything) then sacrificed them to study the injuries. The marks made by a scratch, a scrape, a cigarette burn, a flame burn and electrical burns were not alike -- and the marks on Boggs and JonBenet were both electrical burns. The stun gun injuries matched JonBenet so -- yes, I believe those marks were from a stun gun.

Would a person scream? Can't say for sure but I have seen it both ways on the Internet. Some scream, others just drop.(Funniest was the smart alec who was showing off his new toy, mouthing off, used the stun gun on a can -- then held a metal bracelet and used the stun gun -- he fell to the floor shaking and all - and the people in the background laughed and laughed. But he didn't scream -- just down he went.)

But - what if he went to her room, she was sleeping, he decided to use the stun gun on her back -- he could have put the pillow on her face or pushed her face into the bed. No reason to think there was any scream loud enough to wake anyone in the house.

I think it was used to subdue. If for torture, he would have only been able to do that if he took her away. With only the two sets of marks on heer, it was part of his fantasy, used in the house to subdue. JMO
Reply
#8
Quote:“Sue Ketchum of the CBI [Colorado Bureau of Investigation] is shown the photos of the marks and she indicated that they could very well be made from a stun gun.” (BPD Report #26-58.)
Quote:When they had gathered sufficient information, Ainsworth, Pete Hofstrom, Trip DeMuth, and Detective Sgt. Wickman met with the coroner, John Meyer. After reviewing the photos and this new information, Meyer concluded that the injuries on JonBenét’s face and back were, in fact, consistent with those produced by a stun gun. (PMPT)
Reply


Forum Jump:


Users browsing this thread: 1 Guest(s)