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9 pg notes
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  9 pg notes
Posted by: jameson245 - 06-18-2021, 05:31 PM - Forum: Linda Wickman - No Replies

 
Linda Wickman's Interview Notes regarding "the witness" – Nancy Krebs
Alex Hunter, Lee Hill, Stephen Singular, Barrie Hartman, Linda Wickman
Notes written over a period of weeks.
DA Document #1 Page 1 of 9
On February 16, 2000 this investigator accompanied District Attorney Alex Hunter to a meeting.  The other people present were Lee Hill, Stephen Singular, and Barrie Hartman.  The meeting began about 4:10 pm.
Lee Hill initially explained that he had been retained to represent a person who has evidence and testimony about the Ramsey investigation and other criminal activity.  According to Mr. Hill, this unnamed person could meet with serious consequences if they come forward.  He stated that he has been able to corroborate some of the information his witness has and thinks the information is legitimate.  He thinks his witness is correctly motivated who has no criminal record.  Mr. Hill further commented that other criminal activity would swiftly draw the force back to this case.
The challenge, as Lee Hill sees it, is to put a witness protection program in place in the other jurisdiction.  This process has been started.  He thinks his client is reasonably anxious.  Mr. Hill is limited to some degree in how much he can say.  He asked Stephen Singular to continue.
Stephen Singular stated that he had a number of questions to put to Alex Hunter.  Singular asked if there was interest in investigation the White family.  Mr. Hunter stated that he would investigate the Hartman family if it was indicated.  Singular asked if the Whites had been actively been investigated.  Mr. Hunter replied that they had been actively investigated, although not 100%.  Singular said that about three years ago Alex Hunter had some interest in Daphne White, and asked if there was interest in pursuing this further. 
Alex Hunter then stated that he wanted to hear what Mr. Singular had to say first, then would consider answering Singular's questions.  He stated that his first goal was concerning JonBenet's death.  He said he had an open mind to anything that might advance the case.
Stephen Singular then stated that he it to be on record that he didn't think the Ramsey's or an intruder killed JonBenet.  He thinks other things need investigated.  He referred to the exploitation of children and a subculture that JonBenet was exposed to that he didn't think had been investigated.  He further stated that he had five names of people connected to pornography who have come connection to the Ramseys or the Ramsey group.  He said that he had information from Boulder Police Det. Ron Gosage that this had not been investigated.  If there was to be a dialogue Mr. Singular wanted an indication of some baseline interest.  He wanted to put this topic on the table and kick it around without names.
Alex Hunter responded that he was interested in any (???) to Fleet White.
Page 2 of 9
Mr. Hill commented again that he didn't know about the witness' safety, and that HER safety could already be compromised.
Alex Hunter stated that Det. Gosage and Sgt. Wickman were out of the investigation at this time.  He would want to rely on the police, if indicated, and would probably contact Det. Tom Trujillo.
Lee Hill said that his witness had a life-long relationship to the White family that has been demonstrated and is continuing.  Her testimony and information would send all of her immediate family members (fleet White's family) to prison.  This allegations deal with abuse, sexual abuse, and molestation.  This abuse is ritualistic, routine, and systematic, beginning at the age of three.
Mr. Hill stated that he was referring to his witness being a victim as well as being involved in other activity.  This activity involves two generations, and has gone into a third generation.  Daphne White would be in the third generation.  The witness could also provide additional names of people who were at the White's party.  There is a good chance that these people would add other names to the victim list.  Mr. Hill then stated that if there was hair on the cord he thought he knew who it belonged to.  The witness would also have other information that would go to "other" activity.
Stephen Singular interjected that if a search warrant were served now, it might obtain evidence.
Alex Hunter asked Mr. Hill how this was related to his client.  What was the connection?  Was this person a prior California person?  Is she now a Colorado person?
Lee Hill said he had learned something he wanted to check out.  He said he had talked to some reporters.  He asked when did the Ramseys meet the Whites for the first time?  Mr. Hill thinks they knew each other before.  He referred to entries made, visitors and gift senders to a birth, and testimony from his client.  He further stated that the break down of communication between the families was just subterfuge.  Much of the separation was for show; just an apparent separation.
According to Stephen Singular, they have a person (the witness) who is involved as a victim of illegal sex for a long period of time with family members and the Whites earlier in her life.  This was as a small child, a teenager.  The witness is now a woman approaching 40 years of age.  She is willing to come forward to use her information against relatives.  These relatives have direct involvement with the Ramseys and have knowledge about this case.
Singular stated he has only talked with the witness by telephone.  She presented a scenario with this case. She has connections to people who are vulnerable in the Ramsey case.  The
Page 3 of 9
"other" people she wants to talk about may want to talk if they were in legal trouble.  Singular talked with the witness on February 15, 2000.  She was writing out her information.  The witness' mother is culpable in various ways.  White, SENIOR, in California, apparently found out about the witness and reportedly offered the witness $50,000 to keep quiet.  He subsequently offered her $75,000.  This was in the past two days.
Lee Hill referred to an interview on FOX news, and the publication of a John Ramsey interview in which he denied any confrontation.
Stephen Singular said that Fleet White, Jr. acknowledge to other people that an altercation happened, and that it was so "hot" that a gun had been introduced.
Lee Hill stated that he is normally skeptical about witnesses reporting abuse, but is not skeptical about this witness.
Alex Hunter asked if the witness had any motive to come forward?
Lee Hill replied that , yes, she did. It was to protect the now eight year old family member who was at the White party, and is now in the same position the witness was.  The eight year old lived here at the time of the party.  His client is worried about the eight year old, who is currently overseas.  The client/witness is worried because of old family repeated patterns of sexual abuse.
Lee Hill mentioned the use of ligatures.  He said that one of the driving elements in this type of sexual abuse is to evoke a sexual response in a young child by restricting their air.  His client claimed that this technique was used on her as a child as part of the ritual.  The ritual would frequent occur on holidays.  He commented that the witness was not in Stephen Singular's book.  These things are corroborated by the witness' mental health professional for over ten years.  According to Hill's client, in her experience, whenever a child didn't respond, they were rapped in the head because the hair would cover the bruising.  The witness had family members who claim they were there during the assault on JonBenet.  Two family members were present in the house.
Lee Hill stated that there were three girls who were passed around at the White's house.  The Ramseys had gone to the White's house.  This is the site where the fatal events occurred.
Stephen Singular interjected that he had a different view of things.  He didn't think the crime was committed at the White's residence.  He thinks that there were three people present when JonBenet was killed.  Fleet White, the video person who lives in this area, and the killer who doesn't live in this area.  The witness has said that her family members were involved with the Whites and the Ramseys in general.
Page 4 of 9
Singular mentioned four specific points:
a.  When the witness' then five year old relative stayed with her on an occasion, the five year old screamed for an hour and one half that they're going to kill me, they killed her, over and over. 
b.  The above combined with the phone dialogue between the witness and the witness' mother.  The mother had been present at the White's house on the night of the murder.
c.  The witness' own experience growing up in California.
d.  Evidence of sexual abuse and other abuse.
According to Singular, the witness has participated in a sexual abuse prosecution in the past and has sent a man to prison.
Alex Hunter asked if the witness had authorized Lee hill to say that she would come forward against her family?  Lee Hill replied, yes.  Alex Hunter then asked if the witness' therapist thought that the witness was ready for this?  Lee Hill replied, yes.
Lee Hill said the witness saw him on FOX.  He met with the witness and the witness' therapist.  He received the call late Tuesday, 02/15/00.  The witness provided him with much information and he begged Mr. Hill to check it out.
Stephen Singular stated he doesn't think the details the witness provides are important.  BUT THE CONNECTION TO PEOPLE IN THIS REALM ARE.
Page 5 of 9
Alex Hunter asked if the witness was claiming that Fleet White, Jr. had sexually assaulted her in the past?
Lee Hill replied, yes.  In addition to Fleet White, Sr. and other people.  The scenario is broader than the family.  A prop, similar to an icon has occasionally come into play, reportedly to scare small children.  It is unknown if this is a cult, church, or other religious sect.  It is related to the "kink" that links the perverse sexual fetish the family uses.  The events were filmed.  They are attended by a close, exclusive group.  The witness has told this to her therapist consistently for over ten years.  There is reportedly a business aspect to this also.  It is unknown how large.  He further commented that an offer of money like this is a test question to keep track of the witness' mood.  White told her to accept the money.  She told him, no.  His next question was, you mean you aren't going to talk?  White, Sr, wants the witness to go to Aspen with him immediately.
Barrie Hartman asked if the witness' life was in danger if she accepted the money.  Lee Hill replied, yes.
Lee Hill explained that in California conversations can't be recorded without law enforcement involvement.  The witness also lives with a family member who watches her.
Alex Hunter asked if there was anything else about the crime scene, (BLACKED OUT TEXT)
Stephen Singular said he had questions for Alex Hunter:
a.  Do you know who was at the Ramsey's 12/23 party?  (BLACKED OUT TEXT)
b.  Do you know who gave JonBenet the teddy bear? (BLACKED OUT TEXT)
c.  Is this relevant?  (BLACKED OUT TEXT)
d.  Singular said he didn't think anyone in the White or Ramsey family gave the bear.  He said he thought there was a note in the bear.  (BLACKED OUT TEXT)
e.  Singular said he thought the bear was relevant as a gift for some favor later on in the week.  (BLACKED OUT TEXT)
f.  Do you know everyone who was at the White's house? (BLACKED OUT TEXT) 
g.  Have all of the hair samples been identified? (BLACKED OUT TEXT)
h.  Have samples of Daphne's hair been tested? (BLACKED OUT TEXT)
i.  Is there evidence that JonBenet was tied to something that (???) (BLACKED OUT TEXT)
Page 6 of 9
j.  It is pce. ple?  (BLACKED OUT TEXT)
k.  Any fibers not identified?  (BLACKED OUT TEXT)
l.  Wood?
m.  Did Fleet White have an alibi for later that night?
n.  Do you believe his story?
o.  Was it corroborated by anyone besides Priscilla? (BLACKED OUT TEXT)
p.  Have you seen Chris Wolf's computer hard drive?  (BLACKED OUT TEXT)  Singular comments that he thinks Wolfe has knowledge of the participants.
Alex Hunter asked if Singular had any information that Chris Wolf was connected?
Singular replied that Chris Wolfe's girlfriend thinks Wolfe is a person with knowledge.  She doesn't think Wolfe was present or participated.
q.  Singular asks if anyone had looked on the internet for pictures of Daphne White?  (BLACKED OUT TEXT)
Barrie Hartman commented that there were over 23,000 web sites on pornography.
r.  Singular asked if it was known who put JonBenet to bed that night?  (BLACKED OUT TEXT)
Singular said that he thought that the crime occurred elsewhere.  JonBenet was killed, brought home and given to John Ramsey.  The scene was staged.
The client connects John Ramsey to abuse.  She has said she was abused by John Ramsey earlier in her life.  The therapist had said that the witness' statements about this have been consistent over ten years.  The witness would say that John Ramsey had a social and sexual relationship with the witness' mother prior to his relationship with Patsy.
Stephen Singular repeated that in his opinion the only value of this is to use this witness to put someone into a legal problem to get the suspect to talk.
Lee Hill said that the witness may be confused about John Ramsey, but that he believed her.  Mr. Hill said that many of the details of the witness statements can be checked out.  You don't
Page 7 of 9
have to believe her, you can check it out;  the prior criminal case, prior cooperation with law enforcement, she was made a ward of the court in her earlier life, the therapist's reputation.  The therapist is a counselor with a master's degree.
Mr. Hill further stated that the now eight year old is in Europe with a family member who has knowingly put the child at risk.  The witness has not said that a family member is directly abusing the eight year old.
Alex Hunter asked if McReynolds fit in at all?
Singular replied, no, he is not relevant.  His theory includes the following:
That there was a visible flash point/explosive behavior between the two men;
-the child was brought home dead;
-within 48 hours John Ramsey was a prime suspect;
-Ramsey confronts White;
-end of the relationship.
A variation of this is what happened.
According to Lee Hill, the witness is not focused on the Ramseys.  She is focused on her eight year old niece and the niece's continued exposure to danger.
Lee Hill said the witness claims there have been other deaths.  He met face to face with the witness and the therapist for five hours.  It was plain to Mr. Hill that he could have spent two weeks considering the extent of the crimes.  The witness was able and did differentiate between childhood events and those more current.  According to the witness, the timing of the Ramsey abuse was when John Ramsey was in his 20's to mid 30's.
Stephen Singular mentioned a male putting pornography on CD's.  The witness knows this man through her mother.  Her mother was at the Christmas party.  The mother was visiting a family member.
Lee Hill commented that there was a motive to obscure their presence at the party.  The witness was made a ward of the court early in life.  She did not have a wealthy life.  Later in life she sent a man to prison.  The names aren't connected to the White's except at the party.  The only purpose for being at the party on 12/25 was to bring the five year old for "entertainment."
Singular said again that he thought the teddy bear was connected to people who were involved a couple of days later.  (BLACKED OUT TEXT)  He said that prominent people in Colorado were involved with this child in various venues.  There was a pattern of behavior.  JonBenet was trained to entertain and interact with adult males.  JonBenet had a circle of contacts, some not interacting with JonBenet appropriately, such as her 20 year old brother and others.  Some contacts connect her to other
Page 8 of 9
people.  That circle was involved in JonBenet's death.
Lee Hill said he has reviewed photos of the witness when she was six years old.  The witness was the splitting image of JonBenet, he also saw snapshots of the then five year old niece wearing lipstick and a boa (feathers).  The five year old looked like a completely different child in her school photos.
Alex Hunter commented that he could see that Stephen Singular was passionate about the Boulder connection.  He asked why Singular was passionate about prominent people in Boulder?
Singular asked if anyone has checked on (BLACKED OUT TEXT).  He further commented that if Lee Hill's witness is established, the rest can go out the window.
Lee Hill stated that he wanted to hand this off to law enforcement to check out as soon as possible.
Alex Hunter agreed that these things needed worked promptly.
Lee Hill commented that if a fraction of the statements are true, the witness could be in danger.  He has already spoken with California authorities, and they are about to interview the witness.
Alex Hunter stated he would like to have joint interviews.  He asked when Mr. Hill would be talking with California authorities?
Lee Hill replied that everything was new.  There have been no interviews yet, but they are interested.
Alex Hunter said that there should be a link with the California people sooner than later.  Lee Hill said they were working with a sheriff's office.  Alex Hunter proposed Det. Tom Trujillo be linked to this as soon as possible.  Lee Hill asked for a few hours.
Alex Hunter asked how fragile the witness was.  Lee Hill replied the therapist commented favorable about the witness' status.  Lee Hill has four hours of interview with the witness and his correspondence that correborates the connection to the White family.  Alex Hunter asked about the 20's link to John Ramsey.  Lee Hill stated that it was on tape.  The witness claims JonBenet was partially named after her.
Barrie Hartman commented that Lee Hill and Stephen Singular have expressed frustration with the Boulder Police Department.
Lee Hill stated he wanted a day to get things in place and he would get with Alex.
Barrie Hartman asks if the newspaper could blast the BPD if they don't pursue this.  Alex replied, yes, and commented that this  
Page 9 of 9
was probably a grand jury type of case.  Mr. Hartman asked if anyone had talked to Fleet White recently?  Alex Hunter replied, no.  Apparently Fleet White has put pressure on Boulder County Commissioner Paul Danish, among others, not to authorize more money for this investigation.
Barrie Hartman asked Lee Hill and Stephen Singular if John Ramsey knew Fleet White was involved in the murder of JonBenet, why would be protect him?  Lee Hill replied, because John Ramsey shares culpability.
The meeting ended about 6:20 p.m.
On 021600, about 4:00 p.m. I received a phone call from Lee Hill.  He told me that he was trying to move this matter along.  He wanted to share the recorded statement and video of the photos and other documents.  There has been movement in California at the sheriff's office from one specialized unit to another, although it is not complete yet.
The witness is warming to the idea of meeting with Colorado authorities directly.  Lee has learned from the therapist that there will be a couple of things on the witness' local record that will show up.  The local record notes the witness as *5150* or "crazy" when she attempted to file reports in the past at a couple of law enforcement agencies.  According to the therapist, the witness is not delusional or schizophrenic.  There are explanations for each of these incidences.  The witness was under the influence of medications in one incident.  Lee will explain further.
Mr. Hill expects to have clearance before the end of the day from the witness and the therapist to go forward further.  He is still waiting on the protection issue.
This information was relayed to Mr. Hunter the same day.
Submitted by
Linda R. Wickman
Ch. Investigator
Boulder District Attorney's Office
Hand Notations:
Prepared 2-20-00
Submitted to (??) 2-22-00

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  Professor Matrix v steve Singular
Posted by: jameson245 - 06-18-2021, 04:50 PM - Forum: Nancy Krebs - No Replies

Posted by Professormatrix
One of the most perplexing and mysterious episodes of the JonBenet Ramsey saga was the case of Nancy Krebs, a California woman, who came forward and made explosive claims against the family of Fleet and Priscilla White. This became one of the most vehemently debated subjects of the case with some dismissing Krebs as a psychologically disturbed woman and nutcase and others saying that she deserved to be heard. Below, I have provided a brief summarization of the events surrounding the Krebs saga. I encourage you to draw your own conclusions. The following information was obtained from police interview transcripts, the White’s public statements, and other open source methods. No media publications were relied on. The reader should remember that while some of Nancy Krebs’ claims regarding the Ramsey case and her own sexual abuse were never proven to be true, there is however a lot that can be corroborated.
[Image: pixlr.jpg?w=1024]Photographs of Nancy Krebs as a young child.
Background: Nancy Krebs contacted Boulder-based lawyer, Walter Leon “Lee” Hill, after seeing him on television discussing the Ramsey case. Hill was commenting to reporters about how strange it was that the Boulder police did not want to see his deposition of John Ramsey. Hill had filed a lawsuit against John Ramsey and the National Enquirer on behalf of a Boulder photographer named Stephen Miles. Hill decided to represent Krebs and bring her to the attention of the Boulder authorities. The events that followed were not only strange and frightening but at times extremely confusing.
Hill and Denver-based journalist and author, Stephen Singular, met with District Attorney Alex Hunter and his office’s Chief Investigator, Linda Wickman, on February 15th 2000. Hill stated that his “witness” has had a lifelong relationship with the White family that could be proved and she had information regarding child sexual abuse activities that could send the Whites to prison along with many other people. Hunter pressed both men for details, raising questions about potential motives, locations of where alleged crimes had occurred and other areas of interest. Hill said that Fleet White Sr. (father of Ramsey friend, Fleet White Jr) had offered his witness $75,000 to keep her mouth shut and come visit him in Aspen, Colorado. Singular brought up multiple aspects of the case that he believed warranted further investigation. He was entertaining the possibility that JonBenet had perhaps been killed outside of the home and then returned to one or both parents. Singular also encouraged Hunter’s office to look into Chris Wolf again because he may have information about the crime and its perpetrators, even if he himself was not directly involved. Singular then theorized that JonBenet may have been killed in the presence of three people, one being Fleet White Jr, a second man who was a videographer in the Boulder area, and a third man who was the actual killer that did not reside in the area. With all of these sensational and unproven possibilities being presented to him, Hunter agreed to move forward.
Facts:
-Fleet White Sr. did own property in Aspen, Colorado (827 E Dean St).
-Chris Wolf has no alibi for the night of the murder.
-Chris Wolf’s girlfriend did suspect him of being involved in JonBenet’s killing.
-The physical & forensic evidence does NOT indicate JonBenet was killed outside of her home.
On February 22, 2000, Lee Hill, Nancy Krebs, Alex Hunter and Detectives Trujillo and Heidel sat down for a formal interview. Krebs presented the photographs in her possession and correctly identified all members of the White family. She then presented a letter from Nyla White (wife to Fleet White Sr. & mother to Fleet White Jr) that had been sent to Krebs’ own grandmother. The detectives then commenced the background portion of the interview. Krebs stated that she knew the Whites since she was three years old and they were friends of Krebs’ parents and grandparents. The detectives then turned their attention back to the letter from Nyla and note “that there are some subtle things going on here.” Krebs states that when she neared the age of four, Fleet White Sr. began to sexually assault her. Krebs then states that Lani White (daughter of Fleet Sr./Nyla and sister to Fleet White Jr.) was also present during the assaults. Krebs states that she believes Fleet White Jr. as a minor was “made to do things to me.” Krebs states that Fleet Sr. last assaulted her in August 1980 and Fleet Jr. last assaulted her sometime between 1976 and 1978. The detectives then produce a photograph of a man’s mugshot from California and Krebs’ identifies him as Mackie Boykin, a man who pleaded no contest to sexually assaulting her. Krebs then presents the will of her grandmother’s second husband, which was witnessed and signed by Fleet Sr. and Nyla White. Krebs then makes a very interesting comment that is corroborated by her photographic evidence. She states that when she was younger, she had blonde hair and a slender body, similar to JonBenet.
Facts:
Krebs states that the last time Fleet White Jr. sexually abused her was some time between 1976-1979. Fleet White married Priscilla Brown in 1979.
-The letter from Nyla White to Krebs’ grandmother further corroborates the two families connection.
-The last will of Krebs’ grandmother’s second husband being signed by Fleet Sr. and Nyla White indicates trust and closeness between the two families.
-Krebs possessing family photographs of the Whites and being able to identify them by face indicates proximity and familiarity to and with them.
-Krebs having knowledge of Lani White being Fleet White Jr.’s sister again indicates having intimate knowledge of the White family.



Singular protested - his post follows.   

  • [color=var(--primary-text)][color=var(--primary-text)] I'd like to clarify a few things. First of all, if the author of the above article had contacted me, I would have provided him accurate information about what he's written. "Singular then theorized that JonBenet may have been killed in the presence...." this last statement is erroneous. I never suggested anything to Hunter about three people being present when JonBenet was killed and never said this about Fleet White, Jr. I have never said that I know who was present or who killed JonBenet. I will also leave a reply on the website's "Leave a Reply Page. This is totally inaccurate information and the writer is putting false words in my mouth. - Stephen and Joyce Singular[/color]
    [/color]


  • [color=var(--primary-text)][color=var(--primary-text)]The responsible thing for the moderators of this site, would be to take this erroneous post down. Stephen and Joyce Singular
    [/color][/color]

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  Jane Stobie interview
Posted by: jameson245 - 06-02-2021, 07:53 PM - Forum: Names to remember - No Replies

Interview with Jane Stobie by Mary Mcardle Suma
February 11, 2000

Author: JonBenet's Gift: A Miracle for the Millennium

Transcript provided by 1000 Sparks & Chris
Mame - I was just telling Frank that we got to meet and talked about your book and had a wonderful opportunity to meet you. and I read the book Tell us about the book and then go into the book and about you.
Jane: I started writing it l.5 years ago about the Ramseys and a little story turned into a spiritual and amazing journey of mine and lots of people involved in this case have had strange things occur and draws them to this case. I live in a little house in Denver and am an average person and found myself compelled to write this book
Mame - You and I talked about this. I am an average person and Frank too. Look at the great bright caring people it's astounding ..that bring gifts to this case looking for a day in court
Jane - Since I published this book I found more people throughout the US that are concerned. We are not finding justice from officials in Boulder and think the common people can find Justice for this murder.
Mame- and this came through our reading yesterday, didn't it
Jane - Yes
Mame -
Jane: maybe these common people could find a solution to this problem
Mame - and this came through in our reading
Jane - yes
Mame : it was quite ... I had alot of other family things happened and didn't have time to ponder what our time together meant to me and to the case and so on I left your house not quite teary but moved more than I have been in a long time I want to get into the book and maybe e come back to this... let's not go into my reading yet... The book for me... I come from a family that believes, it's unspoken , in physic abilities like when Aunt Tessy died and there came a rap at the door and no one was there ....so on and on ....the women in my family all have had an intuitive sense they developed I started the book although I was a little skeptical because in Boulder there are a lot of shingles out and with people say things some are the best.... some times it is hard to believe everyone. I read about you in PMPT and found the business side fascinating.. spent three hours with Judith Phillips on the personal side and the book not really rolling my eyes but wonder and immediately drawn in but in the middle got hooked and by the end there were a few moments that were hair raising hard to describe and encourage everyone to buy Barnes and Nobles - Amazon
Jane - It's not in all bookstores but on my site at jonbenetsgift.com
Mame - It's an excellent website. Tell us about your journey from beginning ..you were with JR's company for four years from 90 -94.
Jane - and I have had this intuitive gift most of my life and for most of my life have been a skeptic with this. you know I certain can understand anyone skeptic with my story cause I went through it too. I worked for JB during thAT time and because of my intuition I have the ability to read people. and I thought there is just something strange about that family and Patsy mother and sister worked for me in my tenure and the end of AG because of my background in being a survivor of childhood sexual abuse I recognized there was some dysfunctional behavior going on that was familiar and disturbing. It started out that I worked for him and was disturbed be the family. I remember going into his office and he was one of the persons that was very hard to read. I remember leaving his office I would feel physically ill.
Mame: I remember you telling me that the other day and asked if he ever hit on you and you said absolutely not.
Jane - It was just a feeling about the energy of that person and I talked to other women about him and some who had backgrounds of abuse got the same reaction.
Mame - Did you say to yourself "this guys abusing his kids" or was it more just a sense of bade vibes
Jane - I wouldn't have known it at that time, but my instincts told me there was something not right there. and at the time JonBent was two or three years old.
Mame - and you had limited exposure to her
Jane - yes limited exposure to her and to John but I can say I always felt uncomfortable and there is something it's just ....about him that gave me the creeps.
Mame -ok, tell us about John Ramseys and give us sorta a profile business wise and working with him in a company... this company was little...
Jane - When John came to work for the company he seemed we had this boisterous president. When John came he seem very mild mannered very sophisticated and gotta say he was a brilliant business man, no one can take that away from him, but there was an aloofness and coldness to him that made people feel uncomfortable.
Mame - Was he like that with everyone.
JaNe - I don't think with everyone.
Mame - Was it a moody up and down or was he consistent?
Jane - I think it was consistent except for those he favored
Mame - and those changed?
Jane - Yes, and that was interesting it was like they were in his favor in executive management for a few months and the next thing you knew they were fired.
Mame - so this wasn't like a fair fun place to work
Jane - Well there are several different views to this. If you were in the favor side it was a great place to work, but I think that if you weren't in that inner circle it was difficult.
Mame - I see. and you experienced both sides to that
Jane - Yes but I always tried to stay on the outside cause there was something about the inside which I knew I didn't want. It was against my value system.
Mame - You make a comment in your book that there was a noticeable changer or was it PMPT, you described JR as someone who could at least during your time, JR could handle errors but couldn't handle lack of integrity, but that changed.
Jane - Well I think over time
Mame: You make a comment in the book...there was a noticeable change...you describe John Ramsey as someone who could, at least during part of your tenure there, uh he could handle errors but he couldn't handle lack of integrity. But that changed...
JS: Well, I think that over time, and I'm not the only one who noticed this, that there were changes in John and I think that from what I've been told, the death of his daughter Beth was very disturbing to him and I think that the more the company grew, you could see changes in John. There must have been a tremendous amount of pressure on him. And it was just...
Mame: Did he become more cold?
JS: Yes, ruthless. Yes, all of those things, Yes.
Mame: Would you describe him as always being ruthless?
JS: No, not at the beginning, not at all.
Mame: Okay
JS: But again, maybe he just wasn't showing his true colors. And again I want to say that he was a brilliant businessman. But there was an undercurrent at that company that was almost sinister. So when I heard that JonBenet had been murdered, I wasn't surprised.
Mame: You just intuitively knew, well, anytime a child is murdered, it's shocking but given your experiences you thought there could have been poison or repercussions or...?
JS: Yes, and I thought that there was something about that family that was not right. And it's like I thought, when I initially heard about the murder, oh, they finally went too far. And I have pretty good instincts.
Mame: is there anything else you want to add about John?
JS: NO, I think much of this has already been printed.
Mame: Right. That's one of the reasons I dont' want to stick to long on it, but I also think it's fascinating the time you were able to spend with Nedra and her daughters, not so much Patsy, but the other sisters.
JS: Yes.
Mame: Tell us a little bit about that. You were sent to Atlanta. You commuted.
JS: I was sent to Atlanta to manage the supplies division of the company and that division had been headed by Patsy's mother for a number of years. I think it was a nice little business for the family but when Lockheed came to take over Access, they didn't want Patsy's...the family relationships became more difficult, they wanted to do something about the nepotism. I was sent to Atlanta to close the facilities so Nedra and Polly worked for me. That's when I really saw the red flags. That's when my own background with child abuse, that's when I really saw the red flags.
Mame: Were they obviously immediatley disfunctional appearing...er, dysfunctional to you?
JS: Yes. Absolutely. I had been warned about taking that job from a number of people, including my boss. They said 'watch out for Nedra, she's really mean' - a lot of people had experiences with her at Access Graphics. She just, she goes into rage.
Mame: Did she (go into rages)?
JS: Yes. I personally experienced it. I'll never forget this one day she came to my office, closed the door and it was like a scene from the Exorcist. I started to pray immediately. She came after me with such venom...
Mame: Is that the incident where you had shut it (the division) down, er..?
JS: We were getting prepared, we had just shut it down. She knew what was happening. I mean, her husband was the VP of the company and her son was the President. Surely she knew this was coming. I became the scapegoat which was very characteristic of how they handled this type of situation. It's interesting how they are scapegoating the press and the police and...they are following the same pattern.
Mame: They know exactly how to do that.
JS: right. And that's sort of their...
Mame: Corporate damage, er Family damage control.
JS: The scapegoating to me seemed to be a big part of what they were about. But Nedra, I'm telling you, THAT scared me.
Mame: Tell us about her.
JS: An amazing woman. Um, my accountant who worked for me there said she's the meanest woman I have ever met...or, these are the meanest people I have ever met.
Mame: And it was all for self-promotion and protection of her daughters?
JS: Yes. And it was like, if I could say what might have happened there, maybe she didn't grow up in the richest family and all of a sudden they had money and power and you know, there could have been some old stuff there lingering from her past. But, a very unusual woman. A lot of power and control over her daughters. Moreso than I'd say the normal family.
Mame: Did you have any indication in your time with her. Did she relay any information about her mother? The generational...
JS: No, the only thing she indicated to me was that she had grown up not in a wealthy family. And that when she married Patsy's father, Don Paugh, she was amazed that he picked her.
Mame: Was that her second marriage?
JS: I don't know. I just know that she was amazed that a man like Don Paugh would pick her.
Mame: Now, and even then, did you pick up from her, possible sexual abuse going on.
JS: I think one of the amazing things was, and this was not told to me directly, it was told to a group of employees there, Nedra and one of her employees were talking to several empoyees about the size of Burke's...
Mame: Boy, that's a famous story.
JS: Why are they paying so much attention to that? And number two, why are they saying that about that child? And I almost felt bad reporting that and talking about that, but I think it JonBenet hadn't been murdered, I mean, somebody's got to pay attention to...there's something wrong here, with these folks.
Mame: Absolutely. And, one of the most chilling comment from a parent about a child, you relay in that when patsy had cancer, which sister told you that Don Paugh told which sister he wished it had been her. You tell us...
JS: Right. I have a friend in Denver who is close to Pam. When Patsy got cancer, Pam told this friend that when Patsy got cancer, Don Paugh said why couldn't it have been you (to Pam). Patsy was the favorite in the family. I thought that was a horrific comment. I have to say that I have empathy for any of those girls, but for Pam in particular.
Mame: As a parent myself, one never replaces the other. Ever. No matter how good, bad or in-between. That was an indication to me of true meanness. And not a wholesome sense for your children and what they are going through. Which one, was one more normal that stood apart, was more sensitive and kind or what?
JS: I had a lot of people...Pam was a more normal person when she was away from her family. I can imagine that it must have been difficult to stay away from the tenacles of Nedra. I think that would be very difficult. You know, in families where there is so much enmeshment, it's hard to break loose.
Mame: It is. I'm mixing up my J-girls - Jane and Judith. I can't remember if it was you or Judith who related to me that the phone calls between Nedra and Patsy went on all day long.
JS: They did. I used to have to approve the phone bills for payment from Atlanta and my boss instructed me to ignore them. There could be ten phone calls in a day.
Mame: hmmm, this was an adult woman, with her own family, in another state.
JS: Right. I would think, I call my parents maybe once a day or once a week. Normal people don't call their parents 10 times a day, do they?
Mame: Not unless there's a huge crisis. I probably talk to my mom more than most, once or day or three or four times a week. Let's move on from there. quickly, Don Paugh, people have a lot of questions about Don. You know, he isn't talked about much. It's always the women. But, give us a glimpse of Don Paugh.
JS: One of the things is, he's probably an enigma. It's difficult to really get a true picture of him. I know that there were times in my work exprience with him, where he would be very kind and gracious. And then turn on you in...very quickly.
Mame: What was his position again, at Access? John Ramsey was CEO, right?
JS: He was a vice president. He had a lot to do with operations.
Mame: Remind me, it was a private company but became public when Lockheed took over?
JS: Correct.
Mame: So that changed the rules, big time?
JS: Yes.
Mame: He, uh, he was he sort of the henchman?
JS: I kind of get that impression. I think Don was responsible for a lot more of the operation than we knew. He was in Boulder and Nedra was in Atlanta. And, I remember an employee saying, 'Why do you think Don lives in Boulder and Nedra in Atlanta?' and an employee saying, 'Have you met Nedra?' But, yeah, Don spent most of his time in Boulder.
Mame: He did commute back and forth at times?
JS: yes.
Mame: Tell us about the incident, I missed this in the book. You have an interesting observation with Patsy at a party given by a socialite in Denver.
JS: Right. I went to a party with the Ramseys and that was probably the only real true, interaction I had with Patsy. It was at ______ Castle here in Denver and I can remember when they came. It was a function where Hewlett Packard people and Access graphics people were invited and JOhn and Patsy came and Patsy looked just gorgeous - really done up nice.
Mame: She was a very well-manicured woman and really well taken care of.
JS: Very. So, she sat down with me and I remember they sat near me and Patsy did most of the talking and I think what was most interesting was John kept looking at her with this look of disdain. And, I noticed the same thing on TV. It was like he was almost always afraid of what she was going to say.
Mame: Isnt' that the truth?
JS: And it was like that was my experience at this party. John hardly said anything. It made me feel very uncomfortable that he kept watching her like oh, she's going to say something terrible and like he was embarrassed of her and I felt very uncomfortable.
Mame: And she was just rattling off to you.
JS: Yeah, and I'd never met her before. And she was telling me all this stuff about how she wished she had a career again and I'd never met her before. It was just disturbing how John watched her. If you look at all those interviews on television, he does the same thing. There were so many of those instances
Mame -You made how many trips? You describe every trip in your book. But there's one at night that is just really visually...Each trip to Chatauqua was quite astounding I think as the way you describe it. But you kept going back looking for those specific thing very detailed specific things.
JS- You know she'd say your going see a shaggy dog, and two sheep dogs would walk by that day.
Mame- right
JS- But what all that told me was that we were making contact. Most significant story was about contact was the story about the blue balloon
Mame- yes tell us
JS -I was kinda reluctant too really put this book on the market, when this story happened. I don't care what it takes I have to get this book out because I knew she was contacting us Absolutely. In March of let's see that probably would been 98,no March of this last year, March of 99 there were two full moons.
Mame-right it was a blue moon
JS-blue moon so somebody suggested to me that you take a blue balloon, put helium in the balloon with a blue string, tie your wishes to it and send it to the sky. You know the blue moons only come around once in awhile.
Mame-that's right
JS-We decided some of my friends, four of us decided to get together, one of the lady's at the Safeway got four balloons, and one lady didn't show up and we had four balloons, three of us wrote our wishes down and just on a whim we said you know let's send up a balloon for Jon Benet.So we went across the street from my house, and it was that beautiful blue moon and we sent the balloons to the sky. I didn't think anything of that.
About a month and a half later I was doing a reading and one of the woman who was there that night that sent up the balloons. Jon Benet came to me and said Cindy there's going is a gift for you and your going find it at the base of the tree so just be on the lookout for this gift. Seven days later this woman is walking her dog at Highlands Ranch, which is about 15 miles from my house. Her dog pulls her off the trail and she decides for some reason to follow the dog.
She follows the dog and laying on the ground is a popped blue balloon with a message tied to it and she brought it over to my house and non of us had written it and it just said thank you god for meeting all my needs. And it was like Jon Benet had told her there would be a gift at the base of the tree. And the gift would be something we would all recognize which was the blue balloon. And the handwriting on that note was like a child that had just learned how to write cursive. That did it for me I said she's making contact with me we got to do this.
Mame-right And that started the really intense part of the incredible journey
JS- and it still continues
Mame- it did yesterday
JS yes and I know there's more to come
Mame- well we have probably gone longer than we should but that we have allotted for today but I invite you back because the more time I spend with you in fact I walked in your house yesterday you know I don't want to talk about I basically do the reading and keep stay fresh for our interview but you can't but help to go there I mean the incredible the painting on your wall of Jon Benet which is also the cover of the book is just phenomenal there are so many wonderful clues and things but we could talk about that for even twenty minutes.The old Victorian print that you found that connects up with that but I really need to show the audience that you went to great personal financial risks to do the book.you self published the book you mortgage your houseto do it.
JS- right The traditional publishers didn't want to hear it I think a lot of people, it's almost like the officials in this case people I really think allot of people don't want to hear the truth about this case. That this child was being abused by a wealthy family. Yea I think yea I did I've gone to huge financial risks absolutely believe this story and I think as far as what happened to her the night I'll bet I'm very close to the being accurate maybe theirs a couple details outta place but I absolutely believe this story and an am still compelled to tell it and I was willing to risk everything I had.
Mame-right Well we are thrilled that we have this incredibly rich material and your depth and passion to share it took a lot of guts to even share your own past with being in an abusive situation as a child and we really really appreciate that and I know there are about a hundred things I could think of right now to go and ask those questions of you and we won't do that today. The Internet community um Chris Wheeler who runs the forum at Justice Watch That many of us discuss and talk in put up some excerpts from your book recently and the response was just incredible. So were thrilled to have you with us to discuss this and I encourage everyone to purchase the book it's called JonBenet's Gift Miracle for the Millieum by Jane Gray Stobie.It's available through all major book stores. Tell us about what else you do with your life now.
JS- well another thing I do is I found a number of people who read the book have contacted me for readings. So I do, do readingsand people can call me if there interested in that they can call me at 888-251-2787.
Mame- OK
JS- I have hundreds and hundreds of people that can vouch for my authority .I do believe it's a gift from god and I don't take it lightly. My purpose is healing and hope. That's what I want to offer people so I do, do readings by phone or for people local I can do them here as well.
Mame- Ok
JS- that's another thing I do and I do seminars on how to develop your sixth sense And that information is on my website.
Mame- ok and that again is jonbenets gift.com
JS-Yes
Mame-And I really believe especially after meeting with you yesterday,that those of us who continue to work on this case. In our quiet ways there is no dollar signs next to what we do. And give the news as I do and report the news locally and there is a path that were on there's a reason that were doing it and I do believe and it happen in my reading with you yesterday that very specific information that comes to those of us that are really seeking truth for the right reasons.I have felt that very deeply actually had a chance to have my dad who is a former newspaper man who's been dead for over ten years now speak to me.
And that was quite incredible played the tape for my mom last night and we were both so moved .In fact the cute side of it at one point in the interview and I had forgotten this you described him what he looked like back in his forties and probably the height of his career the beginning of his career as a newspaper man. You even mentioned that he wore Van Heusen shirts and my mom and I laughed and well she didn't laugh I mean it came up in the tape and I said oh by the way mom did he wear Van Heusen's shirts and she said well of course he did.
JS- yea
Mame- and she said yea I bought dozens of those and she ironed them and she told me the story where she bought them at. To her is was as if well why would you even ask Of course he wore Van Heusen's shirts. I have to share that side to it .I do believe and you have just reinforced that in me personally and hundreds of people on the Internet and those that aren't who continuing to keep this case alive. I've met with Judith Phillips this week and several people who hang in there who really believe that this case can be solved it may mean turning over more leaf and looking underneath them and your advice to me was putting on glasses I keep seeing glasses like put on a new pair of glasses.
Looking at it from a different angle. So I thank you for that and I thank you for reinforcing what many of us do very quietly without needing allot of goo ha ha. The Internet community is incredibly powerful and intelligence community and we really appreciate you sharing a part of you Sat. afternoon with us. And we loved to have to back
JS- Oh I loved to and thank you very much and boy I just believe that we can make a difference.
Mame- We absolutely can and I'm going give you the opportunity to bring my sidekick BJ Plasket a newspaper man from the Longmont Times from Longmont.Colorado has requested well he ask me to read the book so I'm going pass it on to him and he's going come in and do a story on you and so were going keep the ball rolling and we love Jane And we respect you for what you're doing and will have you back again
JS- Than You and have a great day!
Mame- You too Jane and take care.
Mame-Bye
JS-Bye

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  Jane Stobie interview
Posted by: jameson245 - 06-02-2021, 07:53 PM - Forum: Names to remember - No Replies

Interview with Jane Stobie by Mary Mcardle Suma
February 11, 2000

Author: JonBenet's Gift: A Miracle for the Millennium

Transcript provided by 1000 Sparks & Chris
Mame - I was just telling Frank that we got to meet and talked about your book and had a wonderful opportunity to meet you. and I read the book Tell us about the book and then go into the book and about you.
Jane: I started writing it l.5 years ago about the Ramseys and a little story turned into a spiritual and amazing journey of mine and lots of people involved in this case have had strange things occur and draws them to this case. I live in a little house in Denver and am an average person and found myself compelled to write this book
Mame - You and I talked about this. I am an average person and Frank too. Look at the great bright caring people it's astounding ..that bring gifts to this case looking for a day in court
Jane - Since I published this book I found more people throughout the US that are concerned. We are not finding justice from officials in Boulder and think the common people can find Justice for this murder.
Mame- and this came through our reading yesterday, didn't it
Jane - Yes
Mame -
Jane: maybe these common people could find a solution to this problem
Mame - and this came through in our reading
Jane - yes
Mame : it was quite ... I had alot of other family things happened and didn't have time to ponder what our time together meant to me and to the case and so on I left your house not quite teary but moved more than I have been in a long time I want to get into the book and maybe e come back to this... let's not go into my reading yet... The book for me... I come from a family that believes, it's unspoken , in physic abilities like when Aunt Tessy died and there came a rap at the door and no one was there ....so on and on ....the women in my family all have had an intuitive sense they developed I started the book although I was a little skeptical because in Boulder there are a lot of shingles out and with people say things some are the best.... some times it is hard to believe everyone. I read about you in PMPT and found the business side fascinating.. spent three hours with Judith Phillips on the personal side and the book not really rolling my eyes but wonder and immediately drawn in but in the middle got hooked and by the end there were a few moments that were hair raising hard to describe and encourage everyone to buy Barnes and Nobles - Amazon
Jane - It's not in all bookstores but on my site at jonbenetsgift.com
Mame - It's an excellent website. Tell us about your journey from beginning ..you were with JR's company for four years from 90 -94.
Jane - and I have had this intuitive gift most of my life and for most of my life have been a skeptic with this. you know I certain can understand anyone skeptic with my story cause I went through it too. I worked for JB during thAT time and because of my intuition I have the ability to read people. and I thought there is just something strange about that family and Patsy mother and sister worked for me in my tenure and the end of AG because of my background in being a survivor of childhood sexual abuse I recognized there was some dysfunctional behavior going on that was familiar and disturbing. It started out that I worked for him and was disturbed be the family. I remember going into his office and he was one of the persons that was very hard to read. I remember leaving his office I would feel physically ill.
Mame: I remember you telling me that the other day and asked if he ever hit on you and you said absolutely not.
Jane - It was just a feeling about the energy of that person and I talked to other women about him and some who had backgrounds of abuse got the same reaction.
Mame - Did you say to yourself "this guys abusing his kids" or was it more just a sense of bade vibes
Jane - I wouldn't have known it at that time, but my instincts told me there was something not right there. and at the time JonBent was two or three years old.
Mame - and you had limited exposure to her
Jane - yes limited exposure to her and to John but I can say I always felt uncomfortable and there is something it's just ....about him that gave me the creeps.
Mame -ok, tell us about John Ramseys and give us sorta a profile business wise and working with him in a company... this company was little...
Jane - When John came to work for the company he seemed we had this boisterous president. When John came he seem very mild mannered very sophisticated and gotta say he was a brilliant business man, no one can take that away from him, but there was an aloofness and coldness to him that made people feel uncomfortable.
Mame - Was he like that with everyone.
JaNe - I don't think with everyone.
Mame - Was it a moody up and down or was he consistent?
Jane - I think it was consistent except for those he favored
Mame - and those changed?
Jane - Yes, and that was interesting it was like they were in his favor in executive management for a few months and the next thing you knew they were fired.
Mame - so this wasn't like a fair fun place to work
Jane - Well there are several different views to this. If you were in the favor side it was a great place to work, but I think that if you weren't in that inner circle it was difficult.
Mame - I see. and you experienced both sides to that
Jane - Yes but I always tried to stay on the outside cause there was something about the inside which I knew I didn't want. It was against my value system.
Mame - You make a comment in your book that there was a noticeable changer or was it PMPT, you described JR as someone who could at least during your time, JR could handle errors but couldn't handle lack of integrity, but that changed.
Jane - Well I think over time
Mame: You make a comment in the book...there was a noticeable change...you describe John Ramsey as someone who could, at least during part of your tenure there, uh he could handle errors but he couldn't handle lack of integrity. But that changed...
JS: Well, I think that over time, and I'm not the only one who noticed this, that there were changes in John and I think that from what I've been told, the death of his daughter Beth was very disturbing to him and I think that the more the company grew, you could see changes in John. There must have been a tremendous amount of pressure on him. And it was just...
Mame: Did he become more cold?
JS: Yes, ruthless. Yes, all of those things, Yes.
Mame: Would you describe him as always being ruthless?
JS: No, not at the beginning, not at all.
Mame: Okay
JS: But again, maybe he just wasn't showing his true colors. And again I want to say that he was a brilliant businessman. But there was an undercurrent at that company that was almost sinister. So when I heard that JonBenet had been murdered, I wasn't surprised.
Mame: You just intuitively knew, well, anytime a child is murdered, it's shocking but given your experiences you thought there could have been poison or repercussions or...?
JS: Yes, and I thought that there was something about that family that was not right. And it's like I thought, when I initially heard about the murder, oh, they finally went too far. And I have pretty good instincts.
Mame: is there anything else you want to add about John?
JS: NO, I think much of this has already been printed.
Mame: Right. That's one of the reasons I dont' want to stick to long on it, but I also think it's fascinating the time you were able to spend with Nedra and her daughters, not so much Patsy, but the other sisters.
JS: Yes.
Mame: Tell us a little bit about that. You were sent to Atlanta. You commuted.
JS: I was sent to Atlanta to manage the supplies division of the company and that division had been headed by Patsy's mother for a number of years. I think it was a nice little business for the family but when Lockheed came to take over Access, they didn't want Patsy's...the family relationships became more difficult, they wanted to do something about the nepotism. I was sent to Atlanta to close the facilities so Nedra and Polly worked for me. That's when I really saw the red flags. That's when my own background with child abuse, that's when I really saw the red flags.
Mame: Were they obviously immediatley disfunctional appearing...er, dysfunctional to you?
JS: Yes. Absolutely. I had been warned about taking that job from a number of people, including my boss. They said 'watch out for Nedra, she's really mean' - a lot of people had experiences with her at Access Graphics. She just, she goes into rage.
Mame: Did she (go into rages)?
JS: Yes. I personally experienced it. I'll never forget this one day she came to my office, closed the door and it was like a scene from the Exorcist. I started to pray immediately. She came after me with such venom...
Mame: Is that the incident where you had shut it (the division) down, er..?
JS: We were getting prepared, we had just shut it down. She knew what was happening. I mean, her husband was the VP of the company and her son was the President. Surely she knew this was coming. I became the scapegoat which was very characteristic of how they handled this type of situation. It's interesting how they are scapegoating the press and the police and...they are following the same pattern.
Mame: They know exactly how to do that.
JS: right. And that's sort of their...
Mame: Corporate damage, er Family damage control.
JS: The scapegoating to me seemed to be a big part of what they were about. But Nedra, I'm telling you, THAT scared me.
Mame: Tell us about her.
JS: An amazing woman. Um, my accountant who worked for me there said she's the meanest woman I have ever met...or, these are the meanest people I have ever met.
Mame: And it was all for self-promotion and protection of her daughters?
JS: Yes. And it was like, if I could say what might have happened there, maybe she didn't grow up in the richest family and all of a sudden they had money and power and you know, there could have been some old stuff there lingering from her past. But, a very unusual woman. A lot of power and control over her daughters. Moreso than I'd say the normal family.
Mame: Did you have any indication in your time with her. Did she relay any information about her mother? The generational...
JS: No, the only thing she indicated to me was that she had grown up not in a wealthy family. And that when she married Patsy's father, Don Paugh, she was amazed that he picked her.
Mame: Was that her second marriage?
JS: I don't know. I just know that she was amazed that a man like Don Paugh would pick her.
Mame: Now, and even then, did you pick up from her, possible sexual abuse going on.
JS: I think one of the amazing things was, and this was not told to me directly, it was told to a group of employees there, Nedra and one of her employees were talking to several empoyees about the size of Burke's...
Mame: Boy, that's a famous story.
JS: Why are they paying so much attention to that? And number two, why are they saying that about that child? And I almost felt bad reporting that and talking about that, but I think it JonBenet hadn't been murdered, I mean, somebody's got to pay attention to...there's something wrong here, with these folks.
Mame: Absolutely. And, one of the most chilling comment from a parent about a child, you relay in that when patsy had cancer, which sister told you that Don Paugh told which sister he wished it had been her. You tell us...
JS: Right. I have a friend in Denver who is close to Pam. When Patsy got cancer, Pam told this friend that when Patsy got cancer, Don Paugh said why couldn't it have been you (to Pam). Patsy was the favorite in the family. I thought that was a horrific comment. I have to say that I have empathy for any of those girls, but for Pam in particular.
Mame: As a parent myself, one never replaces the other. Ever. No matter how good, bad or in-between. That was an indication to me of true meanness. And not a wholesome sense for your children and what they are going through. Which one, was one more normal that stood apart, was more sensitive and kind or what?
JS: I had a lot of people...Pam was a more normal person when she was away from her family. I can imagine that it must have been difficult to stay away from the tenacles of Nedra. I think that would be very difficult. You know, in families where there is so much enmeshment, it's hard to break loose.
Mame: It is. I'm mixing up my J-girls - Jane and Judith. I can't remember if it was you or Judith who related to me that the phone calls between Nedra and Patsy went on all day long.
JS: They did. I used to have to approve the phone bills for payment from Atlanta and my boss instructed me to ignore them. There could be ten phone calls in a day.
Mame: hmmm, this was an adult woman, with her own family, in another state.
JS: Right. I would think, I call my parents maybe once a day or once a week. Normal people don't call their parents 10 times a day, do they?
Mame: Not unless there's a huge crisis. I probably talk to my mom more than most, once or day or three or four times a week. Let's move on from there. quickly, Don Paugh, people have a lot of questions about Don. You know, he isn't talked about much. It's always the women. But, give us a glimpse of Don Paugh.
JS: One of the things is, he's probably an enigma. It's difficult to really get a true picture of him. I know that there were times in my work exprience with him, where he would be very kind and gracious. And then turn on you in...very quickly.
Mame: What was his position again, at Access? John Ramsey was CEO, right?
JS: He was a vice president. He had a lot to do with operations.
Mame: Remind me, it was a private company but became public when Lockheed took over?
JS: Correct.
Mame: So that changed the rules, big time?
JS: Yes.
Mame: He, uh, he was he sort of the henchman?
JS: I kind of get that impression. I think Don was responsible for a lot more of the operation than we knew. He was in Boulder and Nedra was in Atlanta. And, I remember an employee saying, 'Why do you think Don lives in Boulder and Nedra in Atlanta?' and an employee saying, 'Have you met Nedra?' But, yeah, Don spent most of his time in Boulder.
Mame: He did commute back and forth at times?
JS: yes.
Mame: Tell us about the incident, I missed this in the book. You have an interesting observation with Patsy at a party given by a socialite in Denver.
JS: Right. I went to a party with the Ramseys and that was probably the only real true, interaction I had with Patsy. It was at ______ Castle here in Denver and I can remember when they came. It was a function where Hewlett Packard people and Access graphics people were invited and JOhn and Patsy came and Patsy looked just gorgeous - really done up nice.
Mame: She was a very well-manicured woman and really well taken care of.
JS: Very. So, she sat down with me and I remember they sat near me and Patsy did most of the talking and I think what was most interesting was John kept looking at her with this look of disdain. And, I noticed the same thing on TV. It was like he was almost always afraid of what she was going to say.
Mame: Isnt' that the truth?
JS: And it was like that was my experience at this party. John hardly said anything. It made me feel very uncomfortable that he kept watching her like oh, she's going to say something terrible and like he was embarrassed of her and I felt very uncomfortable.
Mame: And she was just rattling off to you.
JS: Yeah, and I'd never met her before. And she was telling me all this stuff about how she wished she had a career again and I'd never met her before. It was just disturbing how John watched her. If you look at all those interviews on television, he does the same thing. There were so many of those instances
Mame -You made how many trips? You describe every trip in your book. But there's one at night that is just really visually...Each trip to Chatauqua was quite astounding I think as the way you describe it. But you kept going back looking for those specific thing very detailed specific things.
JS- You know she'd say your going see a shaggy dog, and two sheep dogs would walk by that day.
Mame- right
JS- But what all that told me was that we were making contact. Most significant story was about contact was the story about the blue balloon
Mame- yes tell us
JS -I was kinda reluctant too really put this book on the market, when this story happened. I don't care what it takes I have to get this book out because I knew she was contacting us Absolutely. In March of let's see that probably would been 98,no March of this last year, March of 99 there were two full moons.
Mame-right it was a blue moon
JS-blue moon so somebody suggested to me that you take a blue balloon, put helium in the balloon with a blue string, tie your wishes to it and send it to the sky. You know the blue moons only come around once in awhile.
Mame-that's right
JS-We decided some of my friends, four of us decided to get together, one of the lady's at the Safeway got four balloons, and one lady didn't show up and we had four balloons, three of us wrote our wishes down and just on a whim we said you know let's send up a balloon for Jon Benet.So we went across the street from my house, and it was that beautiful blue moon and we sent the balloons to the sky. I didn't think anything of that.
About a month and a half later I was doing a reading and one of the woman who was there that night that sent up the balloons. Jon Benet came to me and said Cindy there's going is a gift for you and your going find it at the base of the tree so just be on the lookout for this gift. Seven days later this woman is walking her dog at Highlands Ranch, which is about 15 miles from my house. Her dog pulls her off the trail and she decides for some reason to follow the dog.
She follows the dog and laying on the ground is a popped blue balloon with a message tied to it and she brought it over to my house and non of us had written it and it just said thank you god for meeting all my needs. And it was like Jon Benet had told her there would be a gift at the base of the tree. And the gift would be something we would all recognize which was the blue balloon. And the handwriting on that note was like a child that had just learned how to write cursive. That did it for me I said she's making contact with me we got to do this.
Mame-right And that started the really intense part of the incredible journey
JS- and it still continues
Mame- it did yesterday
JS yes and I know there's more to come
Mame- well we have probably gone longer than we should but that we have allotted for today but I invite you back because the more time I spend with you in fact I walked in your house yesterday you know I don't want to talk about I basically do the reading and keep stay fresh for our interview but you can't but help to go there I mean the incredible the painting on your wall of Jon Benet which is also the cover of the book is just phenomenal there are so many wonderful clues and things but we could talk about that for even twenty minutes.The old Victorian print that you found that connects up with that but I really need to show the audience that you went to great personal financial risks to do the book.you self published the book you mortgage your houseto do it.
JS- right The traditional publishers didn't want to hear it I think a lot of people, it's almost like the officials in this case people I really think allot of people don't want to hear the truth about this case. That this child was being abused by a wealthy family. Yea I think yea I did I've gone to huge financial risks absolutely believe this story and I think as far as what happened to her the night I'll bet I'm very close to the being accurate maybe theirs a couple details outta place but I absolutely believe this story and an am still compelled to tell it and I was willing to risk everything I had.
Mame-right Well we are thrilled that we have this incredibly rich material and your depth and passion to share it took a lot of guts to even share your own past with being in an abusive situation as a child and we really really appreciate that and I know there are about a hundred things I could think of right now to go and ask those questions of you and we won't do that today. The Internet community um Chris Wheeler who runs the forum at Justice Watch That many of us discuss and talk in put up some excerpts from your book recently and the response was just incredible. So were thrilled to have you with us to discuss this and I encourage everyone to purchase the book it's called JonBenet's Gift Miracle for the Millieum by Jane Gray Stobie.It's available through all major book stores. Tell us about what else you do with your life now.
JS- well another thing I do is I found a number of people who read the book have contacted me for readings. So I do, do readingsand people can call me if there interested in that they can call me at 888-251-2787.
Mame- OK
JS- I have hundreds and hundreds of people that can vouch for my authority .I do believe it's a gift from god and I don't take it lightly. My purpose is healing and hope. That's what I want to offer people so I do, do readings by phone or for people local I can do them here as well.
Mame- Ok
JS- that's another thing I do and I do seminars on how to develop your sixth sense And that information is on my website.
Mame- ok and that again is jonbenets gift.com
JS-Yes
Mame-And I really believe especially after meeting with you yesterday,that those of us who continue to work on this case. In our quiet ways there is no dollar signs next to what we do. And give the news as I do and report the news locally and there is a path that were on there's a reason that were doing it and I do believe and it happen in my reading with you yesterday that very specific information that comes to those of us that are really seeking truth for the right reasons.I have felt that very deeply actually had a chance to have my dad who is a former newspaper man who's been dead for over ten years now speak to me.
And that was quite incredible played the tape for my mom last night and we were both so moved .In fact the cute side of it at one point in the interview and I had forgotten this you described him what he looked like back in his forties and probably the height of his career the beginning of his career as a newspaper man. You even mentioned that he wore Van Heusen shirts and my mom and I laughed and well she didn't laugh I mean it came up in the tape and I said oh by the way mom did he wear Van Heusen's shirts and she said well of course he did.
JS- yea
Mame- and she said yea I bought dozens of those and she ironed them and she told me the story where she bought them at. To her is was as if well why would you even ask Of course he wore Van Heusen's shirts. I have to share that side to it .I do believe and you have just reinforced that in me personally and hundreds of people on the Internet and those that aren't who continuing to keep this case alive. I've met with Judith Phillips this week and several people who hang in there who really believe that this case can be solved it may mean turning over more leaf and looking underneath them and your advice to me was putting on glasses I keep seeing glasses like put on a new pair of glasses.
Looking at it from a different angle. So I thank you for that and I thank you for reinforcing what many of us do very quietly without needing allot of goo ha ha. The Internet community is incredibly powerful and intelligence community and we really appreciate you sharing a part of you Sat. afternoon with us. And we loved to have to back
JS- Oh I loved to and thank you very much and boy I just believe that we can make a difference.
Mame- We absolutely can and I'm going give you the opportunity to bring my sidekick BJ Plasket a newspaper man from the Longmont Times from Longmont.Colorado has requested well he ask me to read the book so I'm going pass it on to him and he's going come in and do a story on you and so were going keep the ball rolling and we love Jane And we respect you for what you're doing and will have you back again
JS- Than You and have a great day!
Mame- You too Jane and take care.
Mame-Bye
JS-Bye

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  Barbara Reffner aka A Candy Rose died l
Posted by: jameson245 - 05-16-2021, 02:43 PM - Forum: Names to remember - No Replies

died April, 2021
Barbara (Steele) J. Reffner Obituary
Here is Barbara (Steele) J. Reffner’s obituary. Please accept Echovita’s sincere condolences.
We are sad to announce that on April 26, 2021 we had to say goodbye to Barbara (Steele) J. Reffner of Northfield, Ohio. Family and friends can light a candle as a loving gesture for their loved one. Leave a sympathy message to the family in the guestbook on this memorial page of Barbara (Steele) J. Reffner to show support.
She was predeceased by : her son Daniel Reffner; and her sisters, Judith Armstrong and Donna Vanas. She is survived by : her daughter Tina Smith (Richard); and her grandchildren, Joseph Lesiak and Genevieve Lesiak.
In lieu of flowers, and to assist with the cost of the funeral, the family suggests that donations be sent to the daughter, Tina Smith, or to the St. John Funeral Home (reference Reffner funeral), 923 Broadway Avenue, Bedford, OH 44146. (ST. JOHN FUNERAL HOME OF BEDFORD 440-232-1155).

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  from 2021 blog
Posted by: jameson245 - 05-02-2021, 05:06 PM - Forum: Fleet and Priscilla White - Replies (1)

Don't know who the author is but what follows was online.

On the Whites: “Priscilla had an opinion about everything. She viewed herself as the moral authority on all matters. They were California Republicans who had come to Colorado for a quieter, slower pace life for their kids. My husband liked Fleet but said that in the aftermath of the murder he changed. My husband felt uncomfortable around him and said that Fleet kept making comments that were concerning. He called Fleet about three weeks after the murder to check on him and Fleet went on a rant about how JonBenet’s death was a Boulder only issue and outsiders shouldn’t be worried about it. He then he said he was going to go to the Mayor and ask her to expel all non-local media from the city. My husband taught constitutional law for fourteen years and told Fleet that something like that would be illegal and impossible. Fleet didn’t care. Then sometime later I ran into Fleet at the grocery store, he pulled me aside and put his hands on my shoulders and said “Look, you and [Witness’ Husband Name Redacted] are on our team, right?” I had no idea what he was talking about and I told him that. He leaned closer and his grip on my shoulder tightened. “Priscilla and I need to know that we can count on you.” I was startled and honestly a bit scared. I politely told him that I had to leave because I was in a hurry and left the store as fast as I could. I remember driving home and feeling very uneasy. I kept checking my rear view and side mirrors. Once I pulled into the garage I let the door close all the way before getting out of the car. We still see [i]the Whites around the city, but they don’t acknowledge us at all. Once I said hi to Priscilla as she walked past me and she just rolled her eyes and kept going.”[/i]

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  Marcel Eflers
Posted by: jameson245 - 02-04-2021, 08:21 PM - Forum: Names to remember - Replies (2)

JonBenet Ramsey and a Foreign Faction
 LIKE THIS BLOG
[Image: large-587282.jpg]
By Marcel Elfers
Posted Aug 24, 2012 in Crime
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JonBenét Ramsey died on December 25th, 1996. A two and a half page ransom note was found and Patsy Ramsey called 911 at 5:52 am. You can listen to the call here. Patsy prioritized "address", “a note” and “a kidnapping” above her daughter being "gone". She never demanded nor asked for assistance but replied "please" on the suggestion help was on the way. That is not just odd, it reveals a perspective of the caller. The 911 call is considered deceptive.

For a long time the intruder theory believers have been citing DNA evidence in the case. Unidentified male “touch DNA” had been found on her clothing. The District Attorney’s office explains what touch DNA is in the exoneration letter of 2008. You scrape clothing and find some cells that you further develop into a DNA profile and since it is unidentified, it must have been an intruder.

[Image: JBR_Kolar_book.jpg]
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James Kolar wrote a respectable account in his book “Foreign Faction.” Kolar was assigned lead detective to the Ramsey case in 2005. He had access to all investigative files and explains the touch DNA.

For DA Mary Lacy to exonerate the Ramseys was the right thing to do as the Ramseys suffered long enough. From an investigative perspective, the DNA evidence does not hold up to minimal scrutiny.

Touch DNA is DNA left behind when you touch something. According to Kolar, the FBI sampled off the shelf and packaged clothing for DNA and found DNA on never worn clothing as well. Apparently, handling of clothing leaves DNA behind and is not necessarily from someone who was in contact with JonBenét.

[Image: jbr_dna_ml_070908.jpg]
excerpt exoneration letter Mary Lacey July 9, 2008



According to Kolar, DNA from another four males and one female was also found. There is no mention of other DNA found in her letter and there sure is an innocent explanation for the DNA to be present.

The key evidence for exoneration is this touch DNA, yet, if it is assumed to be from one intruder who was in contact with JonBenét, then another five intruders must have been in contact with her as well. It is impossible to explain why one intruder, let alone a group of intruders, can be in the house, go unnoticed and leave no evidence of their presence behind other than some touch DNA.

It appears the DA office and John Ramsey both know this very well.

[Image: jbr_dna_ml_070908_2.jpg]
excerpt exoneration letter Mary Lacey July 9, 2008



Mary Lacy writes it will take more than DNA to solve what happened that night. Her word selection “your family was not responsible” is curious as this does not exclude involvement. When I am rear ended and my car slides forward breaking the leg of a pedestrian, I am involved, but not responsible. Is the DA office maybe aware that an accident happened that night?

John Ramsey is aware of that detail as well. In his 2008 interview with Oprah Winfrey, he answered the question “what do you think about the exoneration?” with “it is going in the right direction.” With this answer he explains to the world he knows it is not over.

I am writing a book titled “The principle of lying is telling the truth, just not the whole truth.” In this book the reader is taken on a forensic journey through handwriting and textual analysis.

The ransom note was signed as follows:



In my case study I will present a plausible theory an accident happened that night and reveal that S.B.T.C [sic] is the logical conclusion of the ransom note.

Kolar wrote a book worth reading. May Patsy rest in peace and may John find happiness in his new marriage.



Read more: http://www.digitaljournal.com/blog/18127#ixzz6lYVfyjI6

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  interesting - was she angry?
Posted by: jameson245 - 01-28-2021, 04:10 PM - Forum: Judith Phillips - No Replies

Denver, Colorado
Spring 1996

Judith Phillips Photographer Photo Shoot

Judith Phillips, Photographer Photo Shoot

"On one occasion, when my mother was in town, Judith begged to photograph us for a mother-and-daughter series she was putting together. She also took pictures of JonBenet and me, which gave her two generations of mothers and daughters. She had approached John about getting Access Graphics to sponsor this show (snip) his company declined." [DOIpg160]

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  Better in Light Photography
Posted by: jameson245 - 01-28-2021, 03:33 PM - Forum: Names to remember - No Replies

Colorado
April 16, 1996

Easter Photo Shoot (?? Moto Photo Deckens)

"We went for a while to a fellow named Willis. I can’t remember his last name, but he as at Better in Light Photography. And he’d usually take a Christmas picture. And then I started going to Moto Photo there in, down in Deckens" (snip) "They did a Christmas one and Easter one, had a little Easter bunny." [Patsy 4/97]

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  Dinner at the Whites'
Posted by: jameson245 - 01-28-2021, 03:24 PM - Forum: Christmas Day, 1996 - No Replies

Ramseys invited to the Fleet White Christmas Party 1995
A YEAR BEFORE THE MURDER

"Dinner was served in the living and dining rooms, next to the beautifully decorated Christmas tree, glistening with silver ornaments and ribbons that reflected Priscilla's passion for all things silver. We had eaten together last Christmas, so it was beginning to feel like a new tradition for us to join their family. The fire was ablaze in the fireplace. It was Christmas Day, and life was good." [DOIpg8]

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